Hi everyone,

I'm not sure that this is really mini specific or if this applies to most manual cars, but I was wondering if people had some tips about shifting for my 2005 MCS. Today I drove it harder than usual just to experiment a little, and to my surprise the car once chirped the tires a bit even in 3rd gear. My car is completely stock, so I wasn't expecting that But that's not something I do normally, I want to preserve the car for as long as possible.

But I experienced something which I don't know if it is just a fluke or if it's how you are supposed to shift when you are driving fast: Normally the shift between 1st and 2nd is a bit jerky if I'm revving high, unless I wait for the revs to drop (it seems to take a while -- 2nd gear is too tall or 1st is too short?), but this time I didn't wait for the revs to drop, I engaged the throttle perhaps a little quicker than I was disengaging the clutch, and I was expecting to feel some kind of jerkiness, but I didn't -- it was the complete opposite. The car very smoothly slung forward -- it was almost as if the gear change itself shot me forward like a slingshot, extremely fast and smooth. It felt great, but I wasn't able to re-create this. Every time I tried to recreate this, engaging the throttle a split second before disengaging the clutch, I ended up chirping the tires in second, which didn't feel as smooth and I don't think is good for the car. I've felt a similar sensation a few times from a standstill in first gear, which I'm also not able to recreate exactly. My question is -- is this something any of you are able to consistently do, or is it just a fluke thing? I don't want to experiment with it more, because like I said when I tried I ended up chirping the tires, and never got that smooth, slingshot feeling.

I'm not talking just about smoothness -- I'm able to do that if I drive normally, as long as I let the revs drop to the appropriate level before engaging, which is especially easy in the higher gears.

Any feedback appreciated. I get the feeling that I'm talking about something that everyone who is good at driving knows about, but I'd like to get comments from the mini community. Thanks!

 

how long have you had the car? probably stil need to get used to it. also there is a slight delay in the acc. pedal so sometimes you get a weird jerky feeling or "yo-yo'ing"

 

I've had it for about a month. I've heard the term "yo-yo" before and I think I know what that means. But I don't have a problem shifting smoothly if I drive in a relaxed way.

Normally if I rev the car near 6500-7000rpms in 1st before I shift, I need to wait till the revs drop to around 4000 rpms before I can engage 2nd gear in order to shift smoothly -- and this takes like a full second, the revs seem to drop slowly. But it was strange because this time I didn't wait for the revs to drop, and not only was it smooth, it was pulling really hard with no chirping as I was disengaging the clutch.

Just curious: do you experience the same problem of having to wait a long time for the revs to drop while shifting from 1st to 2nd, or can you consistently make those smooth "slingshot" changes from 1st to 2nd without waiting for the revs to drop? Sorry if I'm being vague, hopefully you know what I mean.

 

I pretty consistently get the slingshot..definitely do not wait for the revs to drop (especially merging onto a highway). You are asking about rev matching...

Not sure how long you have been driving stick but these days I can be on and off the clutch between gears in under 1/2 a second . It's smooth and pulls the car through to the next gear without effort. This goes from gears 1-6.

Try being faster on the clutch on and off vs letting the revs drop off.

 

I knew it had a name! Thanks for the advice, it's good to hear you can consistently get that kind of shift. Yeah, I've only being driving stick since June. Luckily I had the opportunity to do most of the learning on a different car, so I was able to spare the clutch my learning process.

But is rev-matching in any way bad for the car? Does it wear out the clutch any faster? When I'm driving relaxed I don't mind waiting for revs to drop, but it's really obnoxious when I'm driving fast, especially from 1st to 2nd in the mini.

 

The only thing that is bad for a manual car is not using the clutch to shift and grinding the gears as also rising the clutch...which means keeping your foot on the clutch while your other foot is on the accelerator past 2000-3000 rpms (when people launch hard...meaning at High rpms they do so knowing that they are putting extra wear on their clutches. Riding the clutch basically rubs down your friction plate.

Rev matching is the best way to stay in the power band.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-contr...m#.UFYtUIl5mc0

Read that info.

 

Meant to say "riding" the clutch

 

Doing a bit of research and kept experimenting, and I'm not sure whether what I experienced was rev matching. I see a lot about rev matching while downshifting -- this makes sense to me, because you can touch the throttle to match the road speed. But when I'm upshifting, as I understand it, rev matching would be waiting for the revs to drop to match the road speed. This is what I do normally, and if I rev it near redline in 1st, I have to wait quite a while for the revs to drop to around 4000 before engaging in 2nd. If I do that, there is no jerkiness at all, but it's annoying to wait. I don't know if this is specific to the mini or not, this long gap between 1st and 2nd, as I've never driven other manual cars.

But this is precisely what I didn't do. I didn't wait for the revs to drop, I changed gears quickly, and I was probably around 4800-5000 rpms when I started in 2nd, and I know this didn't match the road speed, but instead of jerking forward, the car very smoothly continued to pull hard, with no excess tire chirping. Every time I've tried to do this again I always get a little tire chirp. I'm thinking perhaps the reason it was smooth that one time was because I probably had not completely released the clutch when I started accelerating, and maybe that took the edge off the jerkiness and allowed the car to keep pulling hard. It seemed like I perfectly timed the release of the clutch with pressing the throttle that time.

I'm just wondering if this is bad for the car or not (not waiting for the revs to drop, whether the tires chirp of it pools smoothly and hard at the change).

 

No it's not bad for the car, but it's not ness. as you get more comfortable you'll find that instead of waiting for the rpm to drop on it's own, you'll instinctivly only let your foot ease up on the pedal enough to be able to shift straight into the desired gear (even if you choose to skip one), and your timing will get better with expierience. The real benefit to "rpm matching" is clutch wear and longevity, the better you rpm's match your speed for the intended gear, the less wear on the clutch, subsequently the longer it will last. Same with downshifting, matching your rpm to your speed will allow you downshift with a clean gear change (no slip / friction on your clutch) and your engine will actually help slow you down and help save on your brakes, just do it conservatively, down shifting into a high rpm situation and letting your engine do the work is not good either. My advise is once your comfortable with your shifts, learn to get a "feel" for it, instead of constantly looking at your tach & speedo, it will become second nature, and you'll not only not realise you're doing it, it will make it easier to be comfortable jumping into any car and do it right.

And yes, tires chirping all the time is not good, don't forget, the less strain on the clutch, the longer it will last, once you really get your timing down, you'll be able to make quick, crisp shifts with minimal wear on the clutch. As far as your suprisingly smooth high rpm shift, you probably just unknowingly did as I described above, matched you rpm with your accelerator pedal instead of just waiting for it to drop.

 

This is just a hunch, but when you talk about how when you redline in first and then shift to second you have to wait a few seconds for the RPMs to drop and match are you at WOT (wide open throttle) or are you just at like half throttle and slowly accelerating up to redline? The reason I ask is because you seem pretty new to the whole manual thing and you really shouldn't be going up to redline unless you're going WOT in my experience. I'm not sure how to explain the technical reasons of why you shouldn't, but shifting at redline while at WOT and shifting quickly will produce much crisper, cleaner shifts like you described when you said it sort of launches you forward. Something to take into consideration when driving stick is that you should listen to the engine and shift based on that. If the engine sounds as though it's droning when you're maintaing a speed you should up-shift. This rule applies to acceleration as well, use the tach as a gauge to measure how quickly you would like to accelerate. For instance if you want to be driving around town I would limit your shifts to just around 3-3.5K, but if you're really going for it and want the maximum acceleration (WOT) push it to redline. You can always short-shift and still get nice shifts when at WOT, but you also won't accelerate as quickly.

 

christianmc
One other area that may help your shifting is some lower engine mount insert stiffeners. The stock mounts allow the engine to move around a great deal which contributes to being difficult to shift smoothly. There are several vendors that offer a poly insert for the lower engine mount. Many have found that you only need the large insert to reduce a lot of the movement. These are pretty cheap and can be installed very quickly by a DIY.
Steve

 

Sounds to me that you just released the clutch sooner then the target RPM for the next gear.

Example:(3000 RPM is the target RPM for a perfect rev matched upshift..the one where you must wait for the needle to fall)
1-If you take too long to shift/release clutch and missed your taget RPM you'll get a jerky shift with your head flying forward.

2-If you shift/release the clutch sooner/faster then your target RPM you'll get this sensation of your car surging forward and your body/head getting pushed back in the seat. If you apply gas as you do this you can smooth it out.

I believe you experienced/did the second scenario I described.

 

I don't redline often, but I always do it at wide open throttle. Thanks for the tip though, I'm glad I haven't been loafing around at high rpms.

I know shifting quickly at redline from 1st to 2nd can be done smoothly, I'm just not sure how it works, considering that technically, in order to match the road speed when shifting into second at redline, I *should* be waiting for it to drop to 4K rpms in order to match the road speed.

 

I think this is exactly the key:"If you apply gas as you do this you can smooth it out." I know I should release the clutch to match the road speed, but my problem is the long wait for revs to drop while shifting to 2nd, I think applying the gas a little sooner as I'm releasing the clutch smooths out the problem of not waiting for revs to drop. But are you applying the gas already before the clutch is completely released? If so, this sounds like it's bad for the car, considering that I would already be at high rpms.

 

I would only apply the gas before releasing the clutch fully just enough to compensate for the drive-by-wire lag time there is. You might also be experiencing yo-yo affect from a worn bypass valve.

 

Ah, that makes sense, there is a slight delay.

I do occasionally get the yoyo effect, and it it has, I think, only happened at low revs from a standstill or right after shifting from 1st to 2nd. It is very infrequent, and that wasn't what I was originally talking about. You think this may be related?

I will look into the bypass valave, thanks!

 

Generally keeping the car above 3000 rpm will keep you "on boost" and keep the bypass valve closed, eliminating the yoyo....
To reduce wait time in shifting, some folks have gone to a lighterweight crank dampener pulley or a bigger, but more pronounched change is a lighter flywheel when you do the clutch..can make the car harder to drive. Some folks find just using an item like a SPRINT BOOSTER, which reduces pedal/computer lagtime helps.
chirps on a tire mean missmatch of rpm....hard on the car...as is loud revchanges when the gears mesh....the car DOES have syncros in the tranny, so if you get the revmatch pretty close, it will do the rest.....and the syncros will last longer..when they go, time to SWAP the tranny....they are NOT sold seperate to rebuild.

 

Thanks for the advice. I think I will not bother trying to shift quickly from 1st to 2nd at WOT and redline for now -- I can't do that without risking tire chirps. I'm just going to settle for either waiting for revs to drop before engaging 2nd, or not redlining in 1st at all. I can shift quickly and smoothly at redline and WOT for any other gear change, but not 1st to 2nd. I'm not sure whether it's my inexperience or something wrong with the car, and I won't risk continuing to try at this point. I will look into those items, along with the bypass valve, when I bring it in to my mechanic to have it inspected at the next oil change (in about 3000 miles). Thanks again!

 

I am completely off the clutch before I apply gas. I can pretty much get a perfectly smooth upshift(rev mtached) without applying any gas because there is nothing to smooth out.

I experience the same thing you do...redline 1st...then have to wait till about 4k rpms for the shift to be smooth into 2nd. There's not much you can do about that...its just the difference in gear ratios. Notice as you shift up through gears the RPM drops less and less. Thats because the difference in ratios gets smaller and smaller. If you want the needle to drop like a rock a light weight fly wheel would be an answer as someone has suggested here.

Hope my explanation makes sense

 

I was running Nulon gear oil which was great but when I replaced my clutch 12 months ago I refilled the gearbox with Royal Purple because I read that it was the oil to use. About a month ago 3rd started to crunch when hard shifting and changes needed more effort. I just replaced my oil with Penrite (because I couldn't find Nulon) and its shifting much better than the Royal Purple and the 3rd gear crunch is gone.