four Blackstone oil analyses- 15K is too long
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1st Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
four Blackstone oil analyses- 15K is too long
Here is a series of four Blackstone reports that show the MINI oil change is too long- at least on my vehicle-R55. Read from right to left.
The second analysis was from the oil on the recommended interval--it was over 16K and the wear metals and silicon were high, and the TBN showed the additives were shot. I changed the air filter as well at Blackstone's recommendation.
After two more oil changes, the values have all normalized after shortening the oil change intervals! Dealer did all changes with MINI oil.
(for you math geniuses, there was an interval oil change between the first and second sample)
If it wasn't my car, I would run the next interval out to the reminder light, to have a good ABAB test. If enough of you all want to chip into the new engine fund, I'll be glad to do it
The second analysis was from the oil on the recommended interval--it was over 16K and the wear metals and silicon were high, and the TBN showed the additives were shot. I changed the air filter as well at Blackstone's recommendation.
After two more oil changes, the values have all normalized after shortening the oil change intervals! Dealer did all changes with MINI oil.
(for you math geniuses, there was an interval oil change between the first and second sample)
If it wasn't my car, I would run the next interval out to the reminder light, to have a good ABAB test. If enough of you all want to chip into the new engine fund, I'll be glad to do it
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2010
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Go to their site and request a free sample kit and send it back... something like $25 for the test.
I already got the kit and will leave it aside until later... Planning on sending a sample about 1/2 between my next oil change to see if it is needed or not.
I already got the kit and will leave it aside until later... Planning on sending a sample about 1/2 between my next oil change to see if it is needed or not.
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1st Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
about $25-they send you a kit with the sample bottle and mailing tube. I just asked the dealer to fill the sample bottle when they changed the oil. Mail it back to them, and in about a week, you get the report.You can even get a sampling pump that allows you to pull the sample from the dipstick opening.
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1st Gear
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
it's about 80/20 easy highway/around town, with the occasional (maybe once every other month) day of spirited driving. I get about 32-33 mpg
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6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Graham, NC
It appears that you experienced the least engine wear during the 16k mile interval. That would be consistent with some of the research I found indicating shorter OCIs could accelerate engine wear because newer oil is not as effective as older oil.
Also interesting to see the non-linear nature of the change in TBN. Looks like it loses 80% of it effectiveness over the first 7,000 or so miles and then only loses another 10% over the next 9-10k miles.
Also interesting to see the non-linear nature of the change in TBN. Looks like it loses 80% of it effectiveness over the first 7,000 or so miles and then only loses another 10% over the next 9-10k miles.
it makes me wonder what BMW is thinking when they say 15k mile oil change intervals for all of their cars and lifetime fluids like the tranny fluid.
Do they WANT their parts to fail so you have to pay for new ones?
Do they WANT their parts to fail so you have to pay for new ones?
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Long Beach, CA
Just drive a bolted and tuned r56.. you will never have to change oil.. just add to it as it burns :P.
I change mine about every 4k miles, but i add about 2qrts in between cause i burn oil, which i have come to terms with being normal and am not bothered by it.
I change mine about every 4k miles, but i add about 2qrts in between cause i burn oil, which i have come to terms with being normal and am not bothered by it.
say what? old worn oil is better than new?
Wow
thats a new one on me!
Please explain
thats a new one on me!Please explain
It appears that you experienced the least engine wear during the 16k mile interval. That would be consistent with some of the research I found indicating shorter OCIs could accelerate engine wear because newer oil is not as effective as older oil.
Also interesting to see the non-linear nature of the change in TBN. Looks like it loses 80% of it effectiveness over the first 7,000 or so miles and then only loses another 10% over the next 9-10k miles.
Also interesting to see the non-linear nature of the change in TBN. Looks like it loses 80% of it effectiveness over the first 7,000 or so miles and then only loses another 10% over the next 9-10k miles.
1st Gear
Joined: Jan 2012
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They sell more new cars that way I guess.
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1st Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
The good thing is that the results show me I can go at least 7K, probably more like 9-10K.
I hate to say it, but it looks a lot like someone at BMW calculated that there probably wouldn't be any problems during the time interval that most people own their cars. Very sad :-( I'm going to bring this up to them and see what they say.
I hate to say it, but it looks a lot like someone at BMW calculated that there probably wouldn't be any problems during the time interval that most people own their cars. Very sad :-( I'm going to bring this up to them and see what they say.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Graham, NC
From another oil thread, this is what I had found and posted:
The OP's results appear to be consistent with these findings.
I haven't bought the study to read all the gory details, but here is one study on the improved protection provided by oil as it ages:
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear
From the abstract provided: "the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval."
Another one that I have not read through all the details (as they don't seem to be available) and it is quite old, so not sure the findings would still apply to modern engine oils (or synthetics?):
Engine Wear Trending Using Radioactive Tracer Technology, 03-9126
From some of their findings: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."
They don't provide info about intervals and such. But it does go to the question of fresh oil not being as effective as oil that has been in use (up to a point obviously).
This study:
Paradise Garage - Mobil1 Test Results
includes this claim: "Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."
I found the abstract for the SAE Technical Paper referenced, but didn't see anything useful in there (guess you have to buy the full report). I noted that several of the researchers on that paper work for Ford and ConocoPhillips, so not sure the implication of three different organizations reaching that conclusion is entirely accurate.
Also, even though Paradise Garage shows the most wear occurs during the first 3,000 miles after an oil change, I'm not convinced that supports the claim they make.
I've seen theories on why these results are occuring including the need for the additive package to properly bond to the surfaces it is trying to protect needing a certain amount of time/use to become optimal and be properly bonded. I've also seen a theory that fresh oil contains some larger molecules that breakdown during the initial period becoming smaller (and more numerous) which improves protection.
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear
From the abstract provided: "the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval."
Another one that I have not read through all the details (as they don't seem to be available) and it is quite old, so not sure the findings would still apply to modern engine oils (or synthetics?):
Engine Wear Trending Using Radioactive Tracer Technology, 03-9126
From some of their findings: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."
They don't provide info about intervals and such. But it does go to the question of fresh oil not being as effective as oil that has been in use (up to a point obviously).
This study:
Paradise Garage - Mobil1 Test Results
includes this claim: "Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."
I found the abstract for the SAE Technical Paper referenced, but didn't see anything useful in there (guess you have to buy the full report). I noted that several of the researchers on that paper work for Ford and ConocoPhillips, so not sure the implication of three different organizations reaching that conclusion is entirely accurate.
Also, even though Paradise Garage shows the most wear occurs during the first 3,000 miles after an oil change, I'm not convinced that supports the claim they make.
I've seen theories on why these results are occuring including the need for the additive package to properly bond to the surfaces it is trying to protect needing a certain amount of time/use to become optimal and be properly bonded. I've also seen a theory that fresh oil contains some larger molecules that breakdown during the initial period becoming smaller (and more numerous) which improves protection.
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1st Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
jcauseyfd: I'm not sure if there is a misunderstanding somewhere about the results. For the oil change at the long interval (sample from 7/7/11 @16.8K) the wear metals were way up! When I shortened the oil change interval they went down.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Graham, NC
You have to look at the rate that the wear metals were accumulating. Not enough data points to really figure it out, but I'd say somewhere around the 5,000 mile mark the rate levels off and remains fairly constant. At some point it will start to increase due to the ineffectiveness of the oil. Based on the TBN, I'd say you were at about that point at the 16K mark, give or take.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,972
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From: South Florida
BMW/MINI are in the business of selling cars. They want you to comeback to the showroom every 3-4 years to buy/lease a new one.Don't believe for a minute claims of "Lifetime" fluids and obscenely prolonged oil change intervals.... That is, if you want to keep your car years after the warranty expires working reliably.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2010
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All this talk of oil definitely makes me confused. I think I will stick to my original plan of taking a sample around 1/2 way before the next oil change is due and see what I get back from the test results.
If the oil improves with age, then why is it that the BMWCCA magazine have periodic letters to the editor about BMWs that blow their engines at 80 to 100k and are found with old oil gunk built up in them to the point they are no longer properly lubricated????? The letters claim that these are dealer serviced cars, so they have had oil changes at the 15 to 20k mile intervals that the computer says.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 63
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From: Southern New Jersey
From another oil thread, this is what I had found and posted:
The OP's results appear to be consistent with these findings.
The OP's results appear to be consistent with these findings.
I'll stick with MINI's change interval.
Last edited by merlot; Feb 13, 2012 at 09:37 AM.
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