I saw this reply in a discussion of front sway bars on Mini2:

"Strut type front suspensions have very little camber gain during suspension loading (ie. body roll). Since you gain little camber
during suspension compression, the tire loses grip and the car understeers. This is due to the tire not being flat on the pavement. The larger front bar will help minimize the body roll and help keep the tire flat on the ground.

After you control your body roll, then you can apply standard suspension theory which lead you to want less front bar, or more rear bar, to reduce understeer. But until the tires are kept flat on the pavement, the normal theories don't apply."

Ever since I read it a week ago it has been sticking in my mind. While it seems to make sense everything else I have learned says its total BS especially for a car with camber plates. But, running a stiffer bar may allow softer shock settings, but I'm almost at full soft anyway.

What are others' experiences with different front sway bars?

Does anybody truly understand the sway bar's role in the suspension and exactly how it changes handling for the better AND for the worse?

 

I have been wanting to test the "Stiff sway bar and soft spring" theory on the MCS for a while now.

Most of the folks I talk to say it will make the understeer worse, but a few say it might make the handling better

I have had the H-Sport front bar since last summer but haven't installed it yet -- I wanted to wait until autox season was over (Oct) -- and I'm still a bit hesitant to tackle this in my garage.

Last autox season, I spent a lot of time testing various setups - springs, coilover rebound settings, tires, camber, two different rear sway bars, camber, toe etc.

Next season, or this off season, I'm going to try soft springs (250 F, ~275 R -- I currently have 250F 350R) and the front H-Sport swaybar on both settings along with the H-Sport rear competition bar

 

While the statment appears to make a good argument, it's untrue.
-Modern tires are specifically designed to provide maximum traction over a large range of camber angles. While controling camber is essential to have your suspension perform its best, the one or two degrees of camber you retain with a stiffer front sway bar will hardly make a difference.
-By installing a stiffer front sway bar (while keeping all other suspension settings unchanged), you will increase weight transfer on the front axel during cornering. This will increase understeer.

 

The theory of a big front bar is sound... but in reality it may or may not work.... even if a big front bar works and gives good rotation... at least in stock classes of auto-X (no LSD) .... there is a BIG trade off using a really big front bar and that is putting power down... the big bar will tend to lift the inside front tire resulting in lots of wheel spin.... I can drive arround a little understeer... but only if I can put down the power when I need it.... I have SS+ and plan to go to a smaller front bar to hopefully get better rotation and traction... BTW to a point I agree that modern tires are not as camber sensitive as days gone by....

 

So, in my '04 budget planning for MCS mods for "spirited street" I should be thinking about beefing up the rear sway bar for a more neutral balance?

 

So, in my '04 budget planning for MCS mods for "spirited street" I should be thinking about beefing up the rear sway bar for a more neutral balance?

 

>>So, in my '04 budget planning for MCS mods for "spirited street" I should be thinking about beefing up the rear sway bar for a more neutral balance?

Yes, for many of us adding a 22mm rear sway bar and using the middle setting for stiffness seems to work reasonably well (with stock or lowered springs). You won't feel the difference except on taking turns hard.

 

I think the 22mm bar is major improvement even for round-town driving. Makes the car feel more darty and quick. No down side at all. I'm sure it keeps front wheels from spinning too as it dials out some of the lean which unweights the inside tire.

 

it was suggested to me to try changing out the rubber bushings for poly before getting a bigger rear swaybar. What is the word on doing this? Also are there ciferical ends on the originial swaybars? sorry for the spelling.

My 04 MCS seems to have a poor transition left to right, and I would like to improve it.

 

I put the stock cooper front sway bar on my cooper with sport suspension and found that it made a huge difference autocrossing. I didn't push through the corners anymore and I even managed to get it a little loose in the rear when I wanted. I went smaller in the front because the cooper's suspension is stiff enough and I didn't want to sacrifice ride quality or go to 3 wheels when cornering.

 

This thread shows the good and the bad of information on the internet. It's easy to dismiss the obvious BS but how does one refute the claims that are borderline?

Understeer is not a factor so much of the camber but of the weight transfer and the inability of the loaded front tire to maintain the desired direction. If we were to extrapolate the original postulate to slow speeds, the Mini would ALWAYS exhibit understeer because the camber would be the same under all situations. (Note that this statement is a gross generalization but essentially true.)

If we examine all the components that affect the loading of the tire, you'll find that the rear suspension must be considered as well since it's responsible for supporting it's end of the car. Anti-sway bars are just one component that alters the loading of a tire. Dampers and springs also must be taken into account. Too much rebound damping can result in understeer. Softening the front shock may result in a better handling car. This is particularly true when it rains.

It's been demonstrated time and time again, a front drive car handles better with a stiffening of the rear anit-sway bar relative to the stock set-up. If you stiffen the front, be prepared to over-stiffen the rear to achieve the propoer balance. The reason the car doesn't arrive from the factory as such is that, under certain sircomstances, the car will exhibit a snap-oversteer from a "balanced" configuration. The OEMs can't accept that responsibility.