Was reading the Top Gear blog, and they posted this article today. A 226 BHP Mini Cooper S from AC Schnitzer.

http://www.topgear.com/us/blog/more/226-hp-mini-cooper/

More pix and videos at the AC Schnitzer:

http://www.ac-schnitzer.de/en/mini/p...56/multimedia/

 

*yawn*

that's about 193hp at the wheels. 226 at the wheels and I'll be impressed.

 

Read the article, it is 226 at the wheels. Better yet, go to their site and see the Dyno.

 

I am not sure why this would even be a surprise. Hamann has a R56 230 HP, 300+ torque. There are several European plants delivering 225+ HP, it is nice to see AC Schnitzer finally coming out with theirs.

Impressive is the number of 300HP R53s out there.

If you were trying to do a conversion on BHP vs. HP, your conversion is well off the mark. Many publications in EU reports HP in terms of BHP vs. HP. Heck Top Gear almost exlusively quotes in BHP.

 

(misspelling theirs not mine)

They are comparing against crank values. No where did I see them say 226hp at the wheels.

MINI under rates the power it has. That's why a JCW dynos ~200 at the wheels which is closer to 230 crank hp. I doubt an aftermarket tuner is going to underrate what they say they produce.

They are all quoting crank figures. I wasn't converting bhp to hp. I was converting crank to wheel using 15% drive train loss. Show me a MINI with 300lbs wheel torque and I'll be extremely impressed.

 

Motor Mouth, did you go to the AC Schnitzer site? They have more than enough data quoting 226 HP.

Here is one of several EU tuned Mini R56 over 300 torque.

http://www.babez.de/2008/08/hamann-mini-r56/

Hamann and AC Schnitzer do wonders with Mini's and have for a long time as enthusiasts know. It is just too bad it would cost an arm and a leg to do stateside.

 

Please give me a direct link to a page that says WHEEL horsepower. I have been to the acs site and haven't found anything to suggest they are quoting anything but crank power. They continuously quote thier figures against MINIs official crank power so why would they quote wheel hp against that?

 

Look through the dynos posted on NAM posted by Americans. They are quoting whp. Now go look at MINI2 and their numbers are always way higher than ours (suspiciously 15-20% higher). Do they have something magical that gives them 50 more hp or 75 more torque than us?

NO. They use some guestimate of drivetrain loss to come up with the power coming from the engine. I've seen them quote anywhere from 12% to 20% as the number they used when directly asked (if they actually answered). Most say the correction factor is built into the dynos programming and they don't know what % they are using.

Anytime you see BHP you can be about 95% sure they are quoting crank power.

 

If you do not believe either article, so be it. My goal was to share the news. Again, most articles will always either quote HP or BHP. Few ever say wheel HP. They compare the HP in the current Mini to their tuned.

I have seen the Dyno's on both boards, and there is no denying Europe has better tuning shops than we have available for Mini. Their are countless Mini tuning companies in Europe, and few in the US. Their dyno's show theirs before tune and after. Not sure what more you would need.

 

Motormouth, here is Hamann's info:
http://www.hamann-motorsport.de/172.0.html?&L=1

 

I never said the article is lying. I just said they aren't using WHP.

P-torque is good but do you really think they can get 20%+ better than Jan with the same hard parts? You don't know Jan.



Once again I see the word wheel no where on your link.


I have a link for you. http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-e...-cooper-s.html

Ryephile busted them for using an amazing 35% correction in the dyno to come up with their so called bhp.

 

Here is a great example. Look at the dyno posted. It shows two lines BUT the two lines are not two different runs or the torque and hp readings.
The two lines are WHP and the dyno corrected BHP.

Notice anything funny? Even the europeans found the bhp to be exaggerated by their standards!

http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-e...ml#post3485922

 

Good posts, but neither had nothing to do with creditable tuning shops. These are likely guys in their garages, throwing then on cheap dynos. Be it in the UK or in the US, there are always going to be people trying to fudge their dyno's.

No offense MM, or to Ryphile, but I will trust the dyno from either of these renowned Mini tuning shops until Ryephile gets his hands on either to dyno. How about disputing the Hartge while you are at it? Or Digitech? BBR? Again, there are countless EU tuning shops with a CREDITABLE history of tuning Mini's.

Here is a Top Gear ep of several EU tuned Mini's, granted most are R53, but take the data for it is.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=19687761

 

I never said Hartge or ACS or any of those other shops are outright lying. They just don't post WHP! They post CRANK numbers (in which they guessed a correction factor applied to whp to use to come up with the crank number).

geeze. What can't you understand about that?

 

When they post HP, or BHP, and compare under identical conditions to base MCS, or JCWs, it should be good enough. That is all I am saying.

I do not want to argue about it, either you believe their numbers or you do not. Simple as that.

 

Futureal is one of our UK members who knows the difference between BHP and WHP. He is nice enough to post both in his sig. Since he hasn't posted in this thread I copiedpaste his sig for you (225whp on an r56 is impressive):

That is why I yawned at 226bhp from a major tuner (which resulted in your lesson about BHP vs. WHP). Futureal's car would SMOKE the ACS convertible.

 

I understand what you are saying, and know the difference. Again, when we have someone with any of the aforementioned tuning companies post about their Mini, we would be able to confirm. He has a sweet ride, but again, it was not tuned by one of the above.

 

Ok, it sounds like we are on the same page now.


FWIW - I wouldn't count on Hartge or ACS to be able to out tune Will at P-torque or Jan from RMW. I also expect we won't hear anything from either of those 'big name' companies. I've never seen a post from either.

 

I will give you that for those two.

 

"Herr Schnitzer has bumped up power in the Cooper S's 1.6-liter turbocharged engine from 175 hp to a meaty 226 hp: that's more, even, than the 208 hp Jon Cooper Works Convertible. "

Looks like they are comparing power at the crank.

 

there is a pdf with pricing on this website for a vendor in California...
http://www.cecwheels.com/tunerproduc.../MINICooperR56

$11,000 for the kit and $7500 for the limited slip

 

There was another topgear I saw where they compared 3 kits for the Mini (it may have been for the R53 as I saw the video a year or so ago)?

In any case, they compared the JCW kit, and 2 others. The JCW full kit brought the mini up to around 200hp ..nice, but not incredible. the second kit brought it up close to around 300hp and then the mack daddy brought it up around the mid 350hp range. They felt that over 300hp was too much and started to become dragster status. I'll see if I can find the video ...i am sure it's on YouTube.

 

I already posted it. Scroll up. It is the same one that had the BBR out lapping the JCW by 6 seconds.

 

ah, gotcha ...sorry/thanks.

 

In general [and I hate doing that] most "tuners" fail to understand measurements and deltas and how they relate to the real world. Tuners that claim to know crank horsepower and do not have access to an engine dyno cell are flat out guessing and giving you at the least an interpretive figure. What they should do is simply offer the wheel or hub dyno chart [compared to stock] and go on their merry way.

FWIW, a bone-stock R56 MCS makes about 170wHP = 193 HP [crank], so if a tuner claims magical power gains "from 175 HP" clearly haven't measured the stock engine...which is scary incompetent.

Bottom line; ask for deltas in the form of a chassis dyno using proper SAE weather correction. If they have the brace of sensor data then all the better.

Cheers,
Ryan