I have read much about the use of foam pads vs wool and high speed buffer and orbital. Can someone explain the difference? When and why would you use either?

For example a local detailer states the use of both on his menu, but he doesn't explain in layman's terms why?

Oxidation & Light Scratch Remover Cutting Cream
Applied by High Speed Buffer with Silk/Wool Cutting Pad

Polishing Wax with Special Polymers Applied by High
Speed Buffer with Foam Polishing Pad

Surface Protector/Carnauba Wax Applied with Orbital

 

Personally, as a layperson I would not use a wool pad or a non-random-orbital buffer. Maybe if I'd had some practice time with them...but not just as general upkeep. Both are for serious problem correction.

I'm a little surprised to see (in your menu thing there) "oxidation" and "light scratch" removal listed as if they are similar. Personally, for light scratches the process is much less harsh than for oxidation.

As far as wax on a foam pad, that's pretty normal....but I wouldn't be doing it with a buffer.

Have you seen any of this guy's work? Don't be afraid to ask for references!

 

How much does that work cost? Those tools(minus the wool) in the right hands, with the right products, can do some amazing recovery work on paint. On a brand new car, an orbital would probably get wonderful results.

iwanna, come to STL, bring beer, and I'll show you how to do it. Once maybe twice a year for the big detail, hand wash when you can, rinse only in cold weather, no wiping/ towel drying.

Mark

 

That process is part of his showroom detail that includes some other things for $175. He is a mobile detailer.

􏰀 Hand Wash Car
􏰀 Clay Service (Decontaminates the Paint Work & Removes
Rail Dust and Pollutants)
􏰀 Treat and Clean Rims & Molding
􏰀 Oxidation & Light Scratch Remover Cutting Cream
Applied by High Speed Buffer with Silk/Wool Cutting Pad
􏰀 Polishing Wax with Special Polymers Applied by High
Speed Buffer with Foam Polishing Pad
􏰀 Surface Protector/Carnauba Wax Applied with Orbital
􏰀 Dress Exterior Moldings, Bumpers & Tires
􏰀 Clean & Polish Glass
􏰀 Crevice Vacuum Complete Interior Including Trunk
􏰀 Shampoo Entire Vehicle
􏰀 All Vinyl, Plastic and Rubber Deep Cleaned & Dressed
􏰀 All Leather Deep Cleaned & Conditioned
􏰀 Add Fragrance
􏰀 Dress Exterior Moldings, Bumpers, and Tires
Trucks, vans, etc., add $25

 

What products are being used? What is the time line for this kind of service to last;next wash, a couple of weeks, month, 6 months?

Sounds like a fair price, for the work done. For me to work a MINI over takes 10-12 hours, all paint time, no fragrance, $200, double for a SUV.
Beer and help lower the price

Mark

 

Personally I would keep looking. This menu is great for an older truck but not likely your MINI. Wool never touches a new car unless I have to wetsand the paint to fix bad scratches that buffing cannot fix or if the car was repainted and never finished by the body shop. What ever happened with my referral ??? Did he ever reply?

FWIW the menu is standard fare for a typical mobile Detailer. Wool is used because it's fast. IMO the way consumers choose a Detailer is all wrong. He's the expert so be should tell u what u need.

I will give you a prime example. Last week I got an RFQ (request for quote) by a guy with a black BMW X5 and a blue 2002 Corvette. I replied with a standard multicar discount of $1000 for both. Or $500 each. This was based on the fact these cars take 12 to 18 hrs to polish. I said the quote wasn't binding until I saw the car in person so I could give a more accurate evaluation. I never heard back from him but two days ago I get a call from one of my students. He was working on his first rotary buffer job. He has mastered the PC but only has about 20hr on the rotary AMA high speed buffer. He says he's working on a Jet Black BMW X5 and the paint isn't polishing like he is expecting. I laugh and ask if he is in Costa Mesa and he says Yeah. I ask I'd the owner has a blue corvette and he says yeah. So I realize he got the job. So I offer to go down and help him. I show him how to polish the paint and although it's tricky, he needed to adjust the technique. I found he quoted an hourly price instead of flat rate. Similar hourly price but he way underestimated the time involved. He couldn't complete the job and gave up.

The owner didn't get a detail and ended up paying for a wash and wax. Had he hired me in the first place he would have been happy but based on price and not valuing my experience he got nothing. He was lucky he got one of my students who was smart enough to concede defeat instead or pressing on and potentially wrecking the paint which is normally what happens. The owner paysa $250 to a mobile Detailer, hates the results, finds me and pays me $500 or more to do it right the first time.

 

Sorry for typos ...AMA should have been AKA . I will clean the post up and delete this post when I get to a laptop. I will have an Internet connection tomorrow so I'm not 100% on iPhone .....

 

That is funny that you say that about wool and the rotary buffer. I will be aware of it now. But even the local carwash uses a high speed buffer. I would never get a detail there because I am sure that the high schoolers have not had much training on using it. They are most likely trashing paint all day long.

 

Wool is used because it's fast ie removes a lot of paint quickly which is great for mobile guys. It's also what body shops and production guys use. It's lousy for preserving paint and lousy to finish with. You also don't need to use a high speed buffer to apply a wax. High speed buffers introduce their own set of issues on paint such as holograms and buffer trails. Anyone that goes this route is a production detailer. Call him up and ask how long the detail will take...probably 3 or 4 hrs. And remember just because someone says they use the same tools doesn't mean their techniques are the same. What I deem acceptable as a fully clayed surface may not be the same as somebody else. Same can be applied to polishing etc..

 

Richard,
I meant to ask you why your student thought a wool pad on a rotary was the best approach for this particular situation? As you had mentioned this method is only used in a few cases where paint is too scratched to work with a random orbital and a foam pad.

Also, why do body shops use a rotary and wool pad? Is this something that is done after a fresh paint job to QUICKLY buff to a mirror finish? Just wondering because my hood is headed for a fresh paint job soon.

 

Actually we were using foam pads on the high speed rotary buffer. The rotary in the right hands do better and more thorough correction than a pc alone. As for body shops it's for two reasons..1.) it's very fast 2.) doesn't generate a lot of heat like foam does which is important for fresh paint that may feel dry on the surface but isn't fully dry beneath the surface and heat could cause the paint to liquify.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that the wool pad generated more heat than the foam. I thought that was the reason it should not be handled by a novice. Is there any reason to use wool on a random orbital like the PC of Flex?

If at anytime my questions become annoying cut me off. Is there some reading that a novice like me can do to get a better grasp of what equipment should be used when? A website that breaks is down for a simpleton like me. It also seems that there are many different opinions on this subject and digging through it to get good clear answers is difficult.

I have an old 96 Jeep with decent paint that could use cleaning up that I am considering using as a guinea pig for my steep learning curve.

 

Both have there purpose.
the wool tends to cut a little slower, but does not leave behind as many swirls to take care of in the 2nd step. Its also better for the main part of a panel.
the foam pads are more precise, you can concentrate on a certain spot. I use them on and around body lines and edges. be forewarned, they heat up more.
They also leave behind more swirls for the 2nd step.
all good polishers do 3 steps followed by a final hand wipe for final inspection.
at $175 I would have a look at his work. most "detail" guys ive seen leave behind swirl marks.
I personaly wouldnt touch a car for less then $300.

If you want to get agressive with a scratch then lean the polishing machine on the left side a bit, it cuts quicker, then follow up by rolling it on its right side slightly to polish it to a higher gloss.
i only use 1400 rpm from start to finish. I use this technique on cars that I charge 10K for a "show car"

 

In general a wool pad is only used with a high speed rotary buffer and not a random orbital. Although there are some exceptions to this due to some recent technological advancements.

Wool doesn't generate as much heat but it removes far more paint than foam does. The bottom line is this....if you want to remove a lot of paint quickly, nothing beats a high speed rotary with an aggressive wool pad on it.

The fact it removes a LOT of paint should be enough to scare you...not about heat generated or anything else.

The reason a high speed rotary should not be handled by a novice is that the potential for creating irreversible damage is great--regardless of pad type or chemical used.

Let me see if this helps.

1. A high speed rotary buffer can inflict holes in your paint by removing so much at once that you can be down to primer or metal within seconds.
2. A random orbital won't do this regardless how inexperienced the user is. There it's safer in less experienced hands. However it's much slower.

Production guys don't want anything slow since time is money, so they use the High Speed regardless of what the final result looks like.

I personally don't think anyone has disagreed with the above statements. Not sure where you found anyone disagreeing.

If you want some reading, I would highly advise you download Issues 1 and 2 of the NAM Alliance magazine where I cover all of this

https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/alliance.

Richard

 

Actually Wool cuts faster than foam (I'm assuming we are compounding here with something like Meguiar's M105). Try compounding a panel wetsanded with 1500 grit. You'll pull the sanding scratches out faster and cleaner with wool than with foam. And you will do it with less heat at the same speeds.

Richard

 

I start with 1500 then finish with 3000, I start with a wool pad on the main part of the panel, the second step with the black foam always removes the minor scratches left by the wool.
it works fine for me anyway

 

If you're compounding 3000, you really don't need wool to finish that. Where polishing and paint removal is toughest is when you've got RIDS and fisheyes or contaminants in the paint that need to be sanded out and removed and removing lots of paint at once is desirable and necessary otherwise you'll be starting out too fine. Like wood working, you start coarse to shape the object, and use successively finer grits to smooth it out once the nicks and cuts are removed.

In your case, once you've smoothed out the paint so that it's consistently flat (3000grit), then whether you use foam or wool is less of an issue.

Also it depends on what compound you are using. Meguiar's M105 will finish with wool to a degree that you can "almost" finish it with a random orbital or most definitely a white LC pad and Prima Swirl before going to wax especially if you're using Unigrit papers. Previously I used M84 or M85 and I would always have to do further cutting before getting into final polishing stages because it didn't polish out as far.

Finally remember there are atleast two grades of wool..depending on what you are cutting.

I like wool for certain things, but I use foam for the majority of my polishing work.

It should be noted here that the OP is asking about Wool and Foam, not just from the point of view that a car that has been painted and sanded needs polishing but a mobile detailer offering his services wants to use wool...is it really necessary? I don't all cars should be polished with wool if it's not needed.

With an ETG, I can much more readily measure the paint loss after compounding with Wool than with foam and that's proof enough that wool shouldn't be used unless it's absolutely needed and not a way of saving time.

Richard