Suspension Question for Randy about H-sport spring
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
Or anyone else who's experienced increased understeer after installing H-sport springs without camber adjustment. Let me explain...I have the madness three way set to mid position. Prior to the spring/camber change, the handling was immensely enhanced going towards neutral and capable of slight oversteer at let off. After the H spring install and without compensating for the increased rear camber, I suspect the extra rear traction (added by the increased camber) has cancelled out the neutrallity. It now understeers more like stock set up.
Question: Do I have the theory right? Will I need to reduce the camber to gain back the neutral balance or stiffen up my sway bar? Or am I imagining all this (I don't think so...I nearly plowed into a truck while turning inside of him around a boulevard turn...).
Question: Do I have the theory right? Will I need to reduce the camber to gain back the neutral balance or stiffen up my sway bar? Or am I imagining all this (I don't think so...I nearly plowed into a truck while turning inside of him around a boulevard turn...).
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
I think I'm correct about the theory and am planning on using an adjustable lower link to correct the camber. But don't know if I want to spend the money for the upper to adjust toe yet. Randy...please chime in 
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3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: San Diego
With setting up and dialing in the MCS for autocrossing this season, I experienced "plowing" or understeer when the negative camber in the rear was too high. This was caused by lowering all four corners with the coilovers.
What we discovered was that when the front negative camber (with camber plates) was about 2.2 to 2.5 (about right for autoxing), the rear needs to be at least 1 full degree less to enable oversteer on lift.
I ended up getting the H-Sport rear control arms to allow the rear to stay lowered AND to set the rear negative camber to about -1 degree. Before the Adjustable RCA's we had almost -2.6 in the back. Car rotated fine after the change.
These were setups for autox not for street. We also ran the HSport competition rear sway bar on the stiffest setting
What we discovered was that when the front negative camber (with camber plates) was about 2.2 to 2.5 (about right for autoxing), the rear needs to be at least 1 full degree less to enable oversteer on lift.
I ended up getting the H-Sport rear control arms to allow the rear to stay lowered AND to set the rear negative camber to about -1 degree. Before the Adjustable RCA's we had almost -2.6 in the back. Car rotated fine after the change.
These were setups for autox not for street. We also ran the HSport competition rear sway bar on the stiffest setting
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 449
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From: Export, Pa
I have the Madness bar, H-Sports and control arms with the following settings:
Bar - Stiffest setting
Camber - Negative 1 degree
In the this configuration and with Yokohama P215/45 ZR17 ES100s the car is dead neutral with power on through the curves. I love it!
Graham
Bar - Stiffest setting
Camber - Negative 1 degree
In the this configuration and with Yokohama P215/45 ZR17 ES100s the car is dead neutral with power on through the curves. I love it!
Graham
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
>>I have the Madness bar, H-Sports and control arms with the following settings:
>>
>>Bar - Stiffest setting
>>Camber - Negative 1 degree
>>
>>In the this configuration and with Yokohama P215/45 ZR17 ES100s the car is dead neutral with power on through the curves. I love it!
>>
>>Graham
>>
>>
Graham, do you have adjustable lower links? Ohhh..you do. Nevermind...didn't read your post through.
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>>
>>Bar - Stiffest setting
>>Camber - Negative 1 degree
>>
>>In the this configuration and with Yokohama P215/45 ZR17 ES100s the car is dead neutral with power on through the curves. I love it!
>>
>>Graham
>>
>>
Graham, do you have adjustable lower links? Ohhh..you do. Nevermind...didn't read your post through.
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4th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
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From: Saratoga, CA
>>I think I'm correct about the theory and am planning on using an adjustable lower link to correct the camber. But don't know if I want to spend the money for the upper to adjust toe yet. Randy...please chime in
>>
>>_________________
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>>
I have the H Sports and the Madness swaybar set to the mid position purchased from Randy. I was also concerned on the camber adjust. Randy did not believe that it was necessary (I don't autoX and track only once so far). The handling is dead neutral, and I cannot recommend it enough! You can also add camber adjust later if you do not like this set-up. It is quite a transformation in handling with very little downside (except possible increased tire wear). Randy will chime in I am sure.
>>
>>_________________
>>
>>
I have the H Sports and the Madness swaybar set to the mid position purchased from Randy. I was also concerned on the camber adjust. Randy did not believe that it was necessary (I don't autoX and track only once so far). The handling is dead neutral, and I cannot recommend it enough! You can also add camber adjust later if you do not like this set-up. It is quite a transformation in handling with very little downside (except possible increased tire wear). Randy will chime in I am sure.
Thread Starter
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
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From: Greensboro, NC
>>With setting up and dialing in the MCS for autocrossing this season, I experienced "plowing" or understeer when the negative camber in the rear was too high. This was caused by lowering all four corners with the coilovers.
>>
>>What we discovered was that when the front negative camber (with camber plates) was about 2.2 to 2.5 (about right for autoxing), the rear needs to be at least 1 full degree less to enable oversteer on lift.
>>
>>I ended up getting the H-Sport rear control arms to allow the rear to stay lowered AND to set the rear negative camber to about -1 degree. Before the Adjustable RCA's we had almost -2.6 in the back. Car rotated fine after the change.
>>
>>These were setups for autox not for street. We also ran the HSport competition rear sway bar on the stiffest setting
Negative 1 rear is around where the stock is, right? I suspect that I'm at least -2.
>>
>>What we discovered was that when the front negative camber (with camber plates) was about 2.2 to 2.5 (about right for autoxing), the rear needs to be at least 1 full degree less to enable oversteer on lift.
>>
>>I ended up getting the H-Sport rear control arms to allow the rear to stay lowered AND to set the rear negative camber to about -1 degree. Before the Adjustable RCA's we had almost -2.6 in the back. Car rotated fine after the change.
>>
>>These were setups for autox not for street. We also ran the HSport competition rear sway bar on the stiffest setting
Negative 1 rear is around where the stock is, right? I suspect that I'm at least -2.
Ok, let's go over this clearly:
H-Sports are progressive rate springs versus stock linear rate springs
at ride height the H-Sports will be a few pounds softer in front and a bit firmer in rear. As you corner and compress the outside suspension, the springs increase rate significantly, especially in back. During hard cornering, your rear springs will be about 100 pounds firmer than stock! This directly equates to less understeer.
With your 22mm rear sway bar, your body lean is much less than stock, which means your tires need to be more perpendicular to the ground for maximum traction. Stock MCS's have about -1.0 degrees of camber, while after installing H-Sports you'll have around -2.4 degress, which is a lot of negative camber, and probley too much for a lowered and sway-bar'd MINI, even for the track. Because you don't have maximum rear traction, this would indicate even more oversteer.
I am utterly baffled you feel your car has more understeer! Of course, that's what you get buying from that other company
H-Sports are progressive rate springs versus stock linear rate springs
at ride height the H-Sports will be a few pounds softer in front and a bit firmer in rear. As you corner and compress the outside suspension, the springs increase rate significantly, especially in back. During hard cornering, your rear springs will be about 100 pounds firmer than stock! This directly equates to less understeer.
With your 22mm rear sway bar, your body lean is much less than stock, which means your tires need to be more perpendicular to the ground for maximum traction. Stock MCS's have about -1.0 degrees of camber, while after installing H-Sports you'll have around -2.4 degress, which is a lot of negative camber, and probley too much for a lowered and sway-bar'd MINI, even for the track. Because you don't have maximum rear traction, this would indicate even more oversteer.
I am utterly baffled you feel your car has more understeer! Of course, that's what you get buying from that other company
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
>>Ok, let's go over this clearly:
>>
>>H-Sports are progressive rate springs versus stock linear rate springs
>>at ride height the H-Sports will be a few pounds softer in front and a bit firmer in rear. As you corner and compress the outside suspension, the springs increase rate significantly, especially in back. During hard cornering, your rear springs will be about 100 pounds firmer than stock! This directly equates to less understeer.
>>
>>With your 22mm rear sway bar, your body lean is much less than stock, which means your tires need to be more perpendicular to the ground for maximum traction. Stock MCS's have about -1.0 degrees of camber, while after installing H-Sports you'll have around -2.4 degress, which is a lot of negative camber, and probley too much for a lowered and sway-bar'd MINI, even for the track. Because you don't have maximum rear traction, this would indicate even more oversteer.
>>
>>I am utterly baffled you feel your car has more understeer! Of course, that's what you get buying from that other company
No disrespect, Rye 
Just trying to get to the bottom of this.
>>
>>H-Sports are progressive rate springs versus stock linear rate springs
>>at ride height the H-Sports will be a few pounds softer in front and a bit firmer in rear. As you corner and compress the outside suspension, the springs increase rate significantly, especially in back. During hard cornering, your rear springs will be about 100 pounds firmer than stock! This directly equates to less understeer.
>>
>>With your 22mm rear sway bar, your body lean is much less than stock, which means your tires need to be more perpendicular to the ground for maximum traction. Stock MCS's have about -1.0 degrees of camber, while after installing H-Sports you'll have around -2.4 degress, which is a lot of negative camber, and probley too much for a lowered and sway-bar'd MINI, even for the track. Because you don't have maximum rear traction, this would indicate even more oversteer.
>>
>>I am utterly baffled you feel your car has more understeer! Of course, that's what you get buying from that other company
No disrespect, Rye Just trying to get to the bottom of this.
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
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From: Mililani, Hawaii
>>I have the Madness bar, H-Sports and control arms with the following settings:
>>
>>Bar - Stiffest setting
>>Camber - Negative 1 degree
>>
>>In the this configuration and with Yokohama P215/45 ZR17 ES100s the car is dead neutral with power on through the curves. I love it!
I have something similar in setup.
MCS with H-sport springs, rear madness swaybar set to firmest, lower rear adjustable control arms (pair only), tower strut brace, Centerline RPM 17x7 wheels with Yokohama 215/45-17 ES100s.
Rear camber -2.4 degrees after springs installed, alignment done to correct to factory specs all around and set rear camber to neg 0.75 degrees.
Ride is smooth and neutral.
Alignment shop said that for MCS with 17 wheels the factory spec for rear camber is up to neg 1.5 degrees so I think about -1 is stock.
When you have too much neg camber in the rear and you have the adjustable control arms you can reduce the negative and see how that helps or you can try to set the rear swaybar at the softest setting. The other variable is the tire pressures which can be adjusted front and back to different amounts. 33 to about 37 psi - front and rear or the reverse. You have to adjust a little for your setup.
>>
>>Bar - Stiffest setting
>>Camber - Negative 1 degree
>>
>>In the this configuration and with Yokohama P215/45 ZR17 ES100s the car is dead neutral with power on through the curves. I love it!
I have something similar in setup.
MCS with H-sport springs, rear madness swaybar set to firmest, lower rear adjustable control arms (pair only), tower strut brace, Centerline RPM 17x7 wheels with Yokohama 215/45-17 ES100s.
Rear camber -2.4 degrees after springs installed, alignment done to correct to factory specs all around and set rear camber to neg 0.75 degrees.
Ride is smooth and neutral.
Alignment shop said that for MCS with 17 wheels the factory spec for rear camber is up to neg 1.5 degrees so I think about -1 is stock.
When you have too much neg camber in the rear and you have the adjustable control arms you can reduce the negative and see how that helps or you can try to set the rear swaybar at the softest setting. The other variable is the tire pressures which can be adjusted front and back to different amounts. 33 to about 37 psi - front and rear or the reverse. You have to adjust a little for your setup.
...of course, I could be in err about -2.4 degrees of camber being too much. My MCS with H-Sport springs and Comp rear bar and no camber correction yielded perfect tire wear, so perhaps the body is still leaning enough to flatten the contact patch, and therefore increasing traction in back.
I just hope something fundamental isn't wrong with the install, because when I installed the H-Sport springs, the change in chassis dynamics was the opposite of what you're saying! The only other possibility I can think of is horrible construction tolerances on Hotchkis's part, which would be scary.
I just hope something fundamental isn't wrong with the install, because when I installed the H-Sport springs, the change in chassis dynamics was the opposite of what you're saying! The only other possibility I can think of is horrible construction tolerances on Hotchkis's part, which would be scary.
Thread Starter
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
>>...of course, I could be in err about -2.4 degrees of camber being too much. My MCS with H-Sport springs and Comp rear bar and no camber correction yielded perfect tire wear, so perhaps the body is still leaning enough to flatten the contact patch, and therefore increasing traction in back.
>>
>>I just hope something fundamental isn't wrong with the install, because when I installed the H-Sport springs, the change in chassis dynamics was the opposite of what you're saying! The only other possibility I can think of is horrible construction tolerances on Hotchkis's part, which would be scary.
Nothing seems out of character other than the slight increase in understeer. I don't mean to imply that it's horrible. It is still much superior to stock. The change is consistant in both direction (left or right turns). The install was double checked and everything is right and tight. I'm talking very small differences in the overall balance here. Nothing anyone else could detect without having two cars to compare. I just noticed because I had the bar first then the spring change.
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>>I just hope something fundamental isn't wrong with the install, because when I installed the H-Sport springs, the change in chassis dynamics was the opposite of what you're saying! The only other possibility I can think of is horrible construction tolerances on Hotchkis's part, which would be scary.
Nothing seems out of character other than the slight increase in understeer. I don't mean to imply that it's horrible. It is still much superior to stock. The change is consistant in both direction (left or right turns). The install was double checked and everything is right and tight. I'm talking very small differences in the overall balance here. Nothing anyone else could detect without having two cars to compare. I just noticed because I had the bar first then the spring change.
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3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Saratoga NY
I've got the H-sports as my only suspension mod. I'm running Goodyear F1's 205-50-16's and I'd swear they took some of the understeer away. I think that the increased negative camber vs the stiffer spring rates kind of off set each other. I still have understeer but, it is really quite predictable. :smile:
4th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Saratoga, CA
Brother,
How do you like the Goodyears? I am very close to swapping out my all season runflats and these Goodyears are my #1 choice, S-03's #2, and and the Falken Azenis #3. The Goodyears seem to be at a good price/performance point.
How do you like the Goodyears? I am very close to swapping out my all season runflats and these Goodyears are my #1 choice, S-03's #2, and and the Falken Azenis #3. The Goodyears seem to be at a good price/performance point.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 176
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From: Salida, Ca
I had heard the same as well about understeer. That all things being equal the h-sports lessen the understeer. What do you end up with in the back on neg camber -2deg or so? Of course dialing out that with adj links changes everything. So if you leave everything alone and only change to h-sports what happens to your handling??
Sorry can't comment on goodyears, I have never bought them. I lean towards Yokohama or Michelin and would consider the new pirelli nero's...well rated!
Sorry can't comment on goodyears, I have never bought them. I lean towards Yokohama or Michelin and would consider the new pirelli nero's...well rated!
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
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From: Greensboro, NC
>>I had heard the same as well about understeer. That all things being equal the h-sports lessen the understeer. What do you end up with in the back on neg camber -2deg or so? Of course dialing out that with adj links changes everything. So if you leave everything alone and only change to h-sports what happens to your handling??
>>
>>Sorry can't comment on goodyears, I have never bought them. I lean towards Yokohama or Michelin and would consider the new pirelli nero's...well rated!
My theory is that if you start out with just H-Sport spring mod without the sway bar, the increased spring rate in the rear would offset the increased camber and therefore, still reduce understeer. If the camber were corrected, the springs wouldn't have to fight the camber for balance. Seems to me that they are counter productive in setting up balance. Increased rear camber increased understeer while stiffer rear bar decreases understeer. But then, I might be totally wrong...so I ask again, where's Randy when I need him??????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????
>>
>>Sorry can't comment on goodyears, I have never bought them. I lean towards Yokohama or Michelin and would consider the new pirelli nero's...well rated!
My theory is that if you start out with just H-Sport spring mod without the sway bar, the increased spring rate in the rear would offset the increased camber and therefore, still reduce understeer. If the camber were corrected, the springs wouldn't have to fight the camber for balance. Seems to me that they are counter productive in setting up balance. Increased rear camber increased understeer while stiffer rear bar decreases understeer. But then, I might be totally wrong...so I ask again, where's Randy when I need him??????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????
Thread Starter
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OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 40
From: Greensboro, NC
>>Hey Silver,
>>
>>I'm sure Randy would love to answer your post, but being a busy business man, he may not always see all our posts. I'd try PM'ing him.
>>
>>Spike
Ok...I will do that. Hope that works
>>
>>I'm sure Randy would love to answer your post, but being a busy business man, he may not always see all our posts. I'd try PM'ing him.
>>
>>Spike
Ok...I will do that. Hope that works
3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 158
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From: Saratoga NY
>>Brother,
>>How do you like the Goodyears? I am very close to swapping out my all season runflats and these Goodyears are my #1 choice, S-03's #2, and and the Falken Azenis #3. The Goodyears seem to be at a good price/performance point.
Gosharks, while I can't compare them to anything but the stock runflats....I Love them! Ride is tremendously better, grip is great and running in the rain is hardly different than dry. I searched and searched before I bought them. The reviews were all pretty positive and the price was right. I can't imagine a better tire and I have put them through their paces. In August I drove the Mini with them on it 1500 miles to Nebraska to compete in an open road race and 1500 miles back again. They handled the trip and the race great. The race was basicallly averaging 90mph for a total of 56 miles down a closed Nebraska country road. It was a blast!
The Goodyears have about 10,000 miles on them now and look good for at least another 10,000. I would definitely buy them again.
>>How do you like the Goodyears? I am very close to swapping out my all season runflats and these Goodyears are my #1 choice, S-03's #2, and and the Falken Azenis #3. The Goodyears seem to be at a good price/performance point.
Gosharks, while I can't compare them to anything but the stock runflats....I Love them! Ride is tremendously better, grip is great and running in the rain is hardly different than dry. I searched and searched before I bought them. The reviews were all pretty positive and the price was right. I can't imagine a better tire and I have put them through their paces. In August I drove the Mini with them on it 1500 miles to Nebraska to compete in an open road race and 1500 miles back again. They handled the trip and the race great. The race was basicallly averaging 90mph for a total of 56 miles down a closed Nebraska country road. It was a blast!
The Goodyears have about 10,000 miles on them now and look good for at least another 10,000. I would definitely buy them again.
5th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: East
Ok - Let me try.
Ive got the madness version 2 rear bar set on the middle setting as it third is only for coilovers.
I put the H-Sport springs on and experienced the same affect in autocross, more understeer. It is, in my opinion, a combination of the additional (and excessive) neg camber at the rear combined with the stiffer front springs.
In order to get the tail going on lift I used a 10 pound differential in tire pressure front to rear (i.e. 43 front, 33 rear). It works.
I then added the H-Sport camber plates and found that I could drop the differential to about 5-7 pounds. Still can't get the tail around like b4, but any more and the slaloms get really slitherly.
Shock settings (differential f2r) should also help (come on Bilstein) and others have reporterly put adjustable front bars on the softest setting.
I believe that the adjustable rear arms are a good way to go but I won't do it until someone offers a "real" bracket so that I can keep my DSC. Mine is still a street car and as mediocre as the programming is its a nice thing to have in the wet or snow. Besides, it works the lights too.
Ive got the madness version 2 rear bar set on the middle setting as it third is only for coilovers.
I put the H-Sport springs on and experienced the same affect in autocross, more understeer. It is, in my opinion, a combination of the additional (and excessive) neg camber at the rear combined with the stiffer front springs.
In order to get the tail going on lift I used a 10 pound differential in tire pressure front to rear (i.e. 43 front, 33 rear). It works.
I then added the H-Sport camber plates and found that I could drop the differential to about 5-7 pounds. Still can't get the tail around like b4, but any more and the slaloms get really slitherly.
Shock settings (differential f2r) should also help (come on Bilstein) and others have reporterly put adjustable front bars on the softest setting.
I believe that the adjustable rear arms are a good way to go but I won't do it until someone offers a "real" bracket so that I can keep my DSC. Mine is still a street car and as mediocre as the programming is its a nice thing to have in the wet or snow. Besides, it works the lights too.