>>>>Brother,
>>>>How do you like the Goodyears? I am very close to swapping out my all season runflats and these Goodyears are my #1 choice, S-03's #2, and and the Falken Azenis #3. The Goodyears seem to be at a good price/performance point.
>>
>>
>>Gosharks, while I can't compare them to anything but the stock runflats....I Love them! Ride is tremendously better, grip is great and running in the rain is hardly different than dry. I searched and searched before I bought them. The reviews were all pretty positive and the price was right. I can't imagine a better tire and I have put them through their paces. In August I drove the Mini with them on it 1500 miles to Nebraska to compete in an open road race and 1500 miles back again. They handled the trip and the race great. The race was basicallly averaging 90mph for a total of 56 miles down a closed Nebraska country road. It was a blast!
>>The Goodyears have about 10,000 miles on them now and look good for at least another 10,000. I would definitely buy them again.

Thanks Brother for the recomendation!

 

>>Ok - Let me try.
>>
>>Ive got the madness version 2 rear bar set on the middle setting as it third is only for coilovers.
>>
>>I put the H-Sport springs on and experienced the same affect in autocross, more understeer. It is, in my opinion, a combination of the additional (and excessive) neg camber at the rear combined with the stiffer front springs.
>>
>>In order to get the tail going on lift I used a 10 pound differential in tire pressure front to rear (i.e. 43 front, 33 rear). It works.
>>
>>I then added the H-Sport camber plates and found that I could drop the differential to about 5-7 pounds. Still can't get the tail around like b4, but any more and the slaloms get really slitherly.
>>
>>Shock settings (differential f2r) should also help (come on Bilstein) and others have reporterly put adjustable front bars on the softest setting.
>>
>>I believe that the adjustable rear arms are a good way to go but I won't do it until someone offers a "real" bracket so that I can keep my DSC. Mine is still a street car and as mediocre as the programming is its a nice thing to have in the wet or snow. Besides, it works the lights too.


This is the first I've heard of the adjustable rear camber links impacting the DSC operation. I have the H-Sport springs on Koni's and I have ordered the adjustable links to R&R the lower arms so I can adjust some of the negative camber off. Could you provide more information on this as the manufacturers make no mention of this. Thanks for your other information on tuning options for the suspension set up. What differential were you refering to with adjustable shocks?

 

>>Ok - Let me try.
>>
>>Ive got the madness version 2 rear bar set on the middle setting as it third is only for coilovers.
>>
>>I put the H-Sport springs on and experienced the same affect in autocross, more understeer. It is, in my opinion, a combination of the additional (and excessive) neg camber at the rear combined with the stiffer front springs.
>>
>>In order to get the tail going on lift I used a 10 pound differential in tire pressure front to rear (i.e. 43 front, 33 rear). It works.
>>
>>I then added the H-Sport camber plates and found that I could drop the differential to about 5-7 pounds. Still can't get the tail around like b4, but any more and the slaloms get really slitherly.
>>
>>Shock settings (differential f2r) should also help (come on Bilstein) and others have reporterly put adjustable front bars on the softest setting.
>>
>>I believe that the adjustable rear arms are a good way to go but I won't do it until someone offers a "real" bracket so that I can keep my DSC. Mine is still a street car and as mediocre as the programming is its a nice thing to have in the wet or snow. Besides, it works the lights too.


Thanks for that input, Blue MCS. I know there's gotta be more information about this. What say out there? I've PM and called Randy (left number) but he seems to be MIA so are there any other experienced racers out there that could chime in? Very much appreciate any input.


_________________

 

This is an interesting thread. I did some digging & found a roadracers quick-check list that spells out how suspension changes effect Understeer/Oversteer. It was written with FWD cars in mind . I've found these changes work for front drivers but have also seen the same results with RWD cars I've modified with very different suspensions, so the basic principles seem to be universal. Changes may work to offset each other, so the increased Negative camber the H-sports give due to lowering may somewhat offset the stiffer spring rate(s). It may be a question of degrees. Sorry, couldn't resist a pun...Bringing the rear camber back to OEM spec may take full advantage of the higher rear spring rate & reduce understeer more. When Brother was able to dial in more front camber it reduced the understeer as did increasing front tire pressure for others. The information did not cover the effect of toe changes.
I have an Alta 22mm rear bar with an OEM 22 front bar but still have stock springs so I can't comment on the H-Sports from experience. Here's the list;

"To reduce understeer/increase oversteer;

Reduce front spring rate
Increase rear spring rate
Use stiffer rear shocks and/or use softer front shocks
Use Stiffer rear swaybar and/or softer front bar
Move weight towards the rear of the vehicle
Use more positive camber in the rear
Use more negative camber in the front
Increase front tire pressur
reduce rear tire pressure"

To reduce oversteer/increase understeer;

Reduce rear roll stiffness
Use heavier front swaybar and/or use softer rear bar
Move weight forward
Use more negative camber at the rear and/or more positive camber at the front
Reduce front tire pressure
Increase rear tire pressure

I hope this helps someone .

 

>>This is the first I've heard of the adjustable rear camber links impacting the DSC operation. I have the H-Sport springs on Koni's and I have ordered the adjustable links to R&R the lower arms so I can adjust some of the negative camber off. Could you provide more information on this as the manufacturers make no mention of this. Thanks for your other information on tuning options for the suspension set up. What differential were you refering to with adjustable shocks?>>

Well, unless things have changed in the last couple of months, the adjustable rear arms do not have brackets with which to mount the DSC sensors. Without them you have no DSC nor do you have height adjustment on the headlights. For the money I would like somebody else to to figure out the mounting point and angle of the DSC bracket. Not really a lot to ask.

Slideways has it pretty much right on. If you have adjustable shocks and you adjust the fronts stiffer than the rears you will increase the tendency to understeer. The more adjustable variables you put into the car the greater the chance of screwing it up. (:

If you want more oversteer you want keep it softer in the front and stiffer in the rear.

Just be sure to put it back to reality for the street or you may end up *** backwards under an 18 wheeler.

 

That about sums it up SlidewaysMini Thanks for the information. That pretty much confirms my theory. Anyone else concur or disagree?

 

Silver,

Don't know how I missed this one!

Here are my thoughts and experiences.

The H-Sport springs use a split front to rear to dial out understeer all by themselves - about 200lb front and 340 lb rear (about because they are progressive rate). What that means is that while you do get an additional .3 or so degrees of negative camber in the rear, the rates should more than make up for the understeer that would have been induced by the camber. If you have the rear bar, it should act similarly to the way it did before the springs.

Tire pressure is critical, so be sure that is set correctly. I use a 2psi split front to rear. They are tricky, and inducing understeer and oversteer with pressures really depends on when you want to induce it. To get the car to turn in and reduce initial understeer, I run less pressure in the front, and if the problem is in the turn, I use less pressure in the rear. On a perfectly balanced car (suspension wise) you should be able to use very close pressures front and rear.

Here are tips for handling that are specific to the MINI:

More oversteer:

bigger rear bar
smaller front bar
stiffer rear rates
softer front rates
more front negative camber
less rear negative camber
tire pressure - see the comment above

More understeer:

Opposite of above

Camber should be determined using a pyrometer and finding the setting that gives the most even temps across the contact patch. Tire pressure should be determined by the roll of the sidewall - I like to use chalk.

I think that covers it pretty well. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy

 

>>This is the first I've heard of the adjustable rear camber links impacting the DSC operation. I have the H-Sport springs on Koni's and I have ordered the adjustable links to R&R the lower arms so I can adjust some of the negative camber off. Could you provide more information on this as the manufacturers make no mention of this. Thanks for your other information on tuning options for the suspension set up. What differential were you refering to with adjustable shocks?>>

>>Well, unless things have changed in the last couple of months, the adjustable rear arms do not have brackets with which to mount the DSC sensors. Without them you have no DSC nor do you have height adjustment on the headlights. For the money I would like somebody else to to figure out the mounting point and angle of the DSC bracket. Not really a lot to ask.>>

Randy could you clarify that the DSC is rendered inoperative if aftermarket adjustable rear links are fitted?

Thanks, Steve

 

The DSC sensor in the left rear cannot be mounted if you install aftermarket upper rear control links, however this is NOT the case if you decide to only install lower control links.

The rear control arms are very similar; the upper holds the DSC sensor, whereas the lower does not. If you need to correct camber only, you'd get a pair of adjustable lower control arms, therefore not affecting DSC operation.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

Ryan is right.

If you do all four control arms, you can adjust camber and toe independently using just the control arms. If you do the lowers only, you can adjust camber, then use the factory front trailing arm adjustment for toe.

The DSC/Headlight alignment switch is mounted on the upper driver side control arm, so if you only replace the lower control arms, this switch is unaffected. If you do decide to replace all four, you can clamp the sensor onto the control arm, and since the H-Sports don't use heim joints, you won't get any false yaw inputs from the movement those can cause.

Hope that helps!

Randy

 

>>Tire pressure should be determined by the roll of the sidewall - I like to use chalk.


How?

 

Take a piece of chalk and mark it on three or four parts of the sidewall to contact patch area of the tire. Do a run and see where the chalk wears to. It should wear just to the edge of the patch - most tires even have a little arrow that shows where it should come to. If the chalk line is farther up on the contact patch, let some pressure out. If the chalk line wraps around to the sidewall, add some pressure.

Make sense? If not, I can take a pic during next weekends autocross, or before that if I get a piece I need to test out some new suspension stuff at the track.

Randy

 

Thanks to Ryan and Randy for clearing up my question on the DSC sensor and adjustable camber links. I only intended to replace the lowers so its a non- issue.

Steve

 

Wheww....That was very educational. Thanks everyone and Randy for your very informative inputs. I've been working on the tire pressure and have found the balance I was missing. Until I get the H-sport bars, air will have to do

Thanks again, yall....

 

The shopping cart is something planned for the new site. I had been avoiding it so that I could talk to each customer and be sure they were really getting just what they needed. It seems I can't avoid it any longer.

There are a lot of new features that will be intro'd on the new site - coming very soon!

The bars will be out of production within the next week, then I will have them in stock. They are all blue.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy

 

I ordered the H-Sport lower arms from you, (should be here any day). Do you have a "rule of thumb" for adjusting the arms? In other words, how much camber change for each turn of the adjuster? Could I use an angle finder on the wheel to check before and after camber (h-sport spring install) and use that to adjust camber? I would use this to get close to the right settings but would also get a shop to check the final settings. Thanks for all the help.