I need help picking out a rear sway bar, anyone have reccomondations, or better yet has anyone been disapointed with theirs?

and would it be worth it to get a brake kit and install that at the same time as the sway bar? anyone think a break kit is even really neeeded?

btw, MC.

 

Talk to Randy, I have the Alta 19mm, because I am getting H-Sport springs Randy
suggested that for me. He is pretty good at determing what kind of driving you'll
be doing and helping you find the right combination of mod's.

Posting is a good start you will get lots of advise, I suggest reading thru all of them
as they come in, speak with Randy and other of the top guys. Dont rush into a
purchase.

Good luck, its all Fun.
"The Ball Matters"

Kent

 

I'd give Randy a call at Webb Motorsports. He has a selection of sway bars and can help advise you of the best for your needs.

Larger brakes are a good idea if you are running for long distances on a race track. In every day driving, you really do not use the brakes enough to require an upgrade. Certainly larger brakes stop the car faster, but more importantly, it takes longer for them to heat up and begin fading on you.

My experience of driving on the Tail of the Dragon (318 curves in 11 miles) showed that the stock brakes performed very well with little or no fade in that particular situation. If I was running on a track all afternoon, I'm sure that the brakes would begin to fade within 15-20 minutes of hard track driving.

 

First of all, adding a beefier rear sway is #2 on mod list, right after a good intake.

Nearly everyone offers one these days including Eibach, H&R, H-sport, Monster MINI, Alta, Mini-Madness, RDR, and a few others. Some offer only rear sway bars while others offer them as a set or individually. Since you most likely will only need a rear bar, you may look into the Alta bar (in 19mm and 22mm) both have two adjustment holes. The Madness is a 22mm 3 way rear that has been redesigned recently. H&R supplies a bushing with textured insides that are supposed to reduce bushing squeal.

I have a Madness bar on and have no problems with it and have cranked all the way to the third setting.

If you are thinking of doing the install yourself, you may want to look into our "how we did it":
http://www.outmotoring.com/How_to_rearswaybar.html

You can find most of the bars mentioned in our sway bar section:
http://www.outmotoring.com/suspension.html

Happy shopping!

 

Thanks for the info, still not sure which one I'm gonna go with, but probaly the alta or the new madnes bars. I think I'll order the bar tomarrow though if I can actually decide. anyone else with some opinions on their rear sway bar??

and it is number 2 for me, intake was first. I'm also gonna try and get an lsd very soon, although I have a lot more research to do before I can commit to it.

and the rogue exhaust, and wheels after that :smile:

want to build a really sweet autocross car, that is just as much fun on the streets (not too worried about classification, I'm a novice still, so no plans of nationals just yet...heh )

 

I have the RDR adj, sway bar from Helix.....nice piece, well made

 

I have the older version 2 hole Madness rearswaybar and it works great with the H-sport springs and H-sport rear control arms (lower pair only) that I have. Another person has had trouble with his madness bar rubbing agains the aftermarket swaybar links which are thicker than stock. You might ask Randy about that. Some parts may not mix and match as well. I have no such trouble but my links are all stock.

From Randy's current site:
H-sport 19mm two position adjustable swaybar (black) $199
(which brand?) 22mm two position adjustable swaybar (black) $199
Tubular H-Sport Competition Swaybar 22mm effective rate, 3 position, 4.8 lbs $230 (the lightest)
Mini-Madness 22mm three position adjustable swaybar (red) $190

Just a reminder. On the street the rear swaybar will have minimal effect (depends how hard you take corners). At the track or in autocross you will like it.

 

In my book the best bar right now is the H-sport...why you ask simply it's lighter! why would you want to add extra weight to your car. The H-sport bar is hollow reducing the weight tremendously giving you the same torsional spec as the others without the weight................ M7 has the bar in stock for imediate shiping.

peter horvath
562 712 3270 :smile:

 

I'm running the H-Sport rear bar (22 mm) and love it. I started out in the middle position, and moved up to firm at track day last weekend.

It also comes with grease fittings on the bushing mounts, which will help prevent the dreaded squeak.

Combined with their front bar, and adj lower rear control arms, it's a great set-up.

 

The best swaybar...

That is a loaded question, as there are several considerations you have to make to set the parameters that define "best".

Here are some thoughts to help with your decision:

First, what rate do you need? If you are autocrossing, and have the stock springs, you will probably want a 22mm effective rate bar. If you are only driving it on the street, or have stiffer rate springs in the rear, or own a Cooper, you may want a 19mm bar with an adjustment to stiff for track or autocross days.

Second, do you want a solid or tubular bar? The difference is solely in the weight of the bar. Currently, there is only one tubular bar on the market (in both of the above rates), so if you want the lighter weight bar, it makes for an easier decision. The more important question is - do you need alighter weight bar. If money is not a concern, I recommend the tubular bar. If it is, you need to set some priorities.

Third, what manufacturer do you want or have preference for? There are now a ton of bars out there. Here are some thoughts on the bars on the market:

H-Sport

This bar is probably the nicest on the market now that the bend schedules are correct. The original design allowed lateral movement, which could cause contact with the spring, but a new schedule is currently in production to be finished within two weeks. It is a tubular 4130 bar with forged three way adjustable ends. The bar is available as a 19mm or 22mm effective rate. The larger bar weighs in at 5 lbs. It is $230.



Madness

This bar was the industry standard for some time. In the revisions, we had some production issues that caused problems. Now the bar has aluminum collars to prevent lateral movement, and the issues have been worked out. It is a solid 22mm bar with punched three way adjustable ends. The bar weighs 9 lbs. It is $190.

This pic is of the bar with welded collars. I believe all bars now come with the aluminum collars.

Alta

This is another solid bar available in 19 and 22mm rates. It has laser cut two way adjustable ends with collars welded in place to prevent lateral movement. This bar has slightly more clearance from the springs than the Madness bar, and it is black instead of red. This bar weighs 9 lbs. It is $199.


Mini Mania

This bar is one of the few that include drop-links as well. It is "infinitely" adjustable due to the silding nature of the end links. It is a 19mm bar. The only issue with this type of bar is under serious track use, some end link movement may occur. The fix is straight forward - drill a small hole once you find the location you like and safety wire it in place. This bar weighs 8 lbs (the bar without the drop links). It is $250.


RDR

This bar is a solid, 20.5mm bar with drilled three way adjustable ends. It also uses locking collars to prevent lateral movement. THe bar weighs 9 lbs and is black. It is $235.


H&R

This bar is a solid 18mm bar that is two position adjustable. The stock bar is 17mm, so unless you drive a Cooper, the advantage of this bar is minimal. It weighs 8 lbs. It is $170, which is a bargain in the swaybar world.

I hope that helps! Feel free to contact me if you have anmy questions.

Randy
720-841-1002

_________________

CLICK THE SIG PIC!

This ain't no Disco

 

wow, thanks for all the great info Randy.

I have a cooper with stock SSP (and with no current plans to change from stock unless I read about some really great spring or coilover setups). My intent is to to tune my car for the best autocross setup (within reason of course).

The difference in price between those bars is minimal enough for me, so it sounds like I should go for the H sport, correct? after sharing all that I will gladly make the order through your website, thanks again.

 

For the Sport Plus suspension, you could go with a 22mm bar. The H-sport is the best one out there, but is also mid-production, so it isn't available with the new bends just yet. I have several on th list for it, so I'd be happy to help you out - but I want to let you know there is about a two week wait. The Alta and I believe Madness bars are in stock. It just depends on your timeline.

Thanks for your business! Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy
720-841-1002

 

woah, when did H-Sport release a 19mm-rate tubular??
Just for kicks, what is this bar's external diameter, and does is weigh much less than the big tubular? Finally, what is the 19mm-rate tubular's pricing?

TIA,
Ryan

_________________

 

Its tough getting through to you on the phone!

thanks again for the great info, when I do get ahold of you I will ask some more of the many questions I have and will be putting my name down for the h sport sway bar (and probably a few other things as well).

 

Randy,
thanks much for the brief summaries and the pictures.

For the H-sport tubular is that the blue 22mm you showed in the picture next to the stock black rear swaybar?
I'm also interested in the price and weight of the H-sport 19mm swaybar.

Any early info on the competition version of the Tubular swaybars from H-sport? What makes them competition?

Any advice on the need for a front swaybar to complement the rear bars? Who would need the front swaybars?
Anyone sell a front only? I do see sets more commonly.

 

If I'm not mistaken, another unique feature of the H-Sport is that the mountinng clamps have lube points! For those who know about such squeaks, well, this bar makes avoiding this much easier...

minihune, yes, in that one photo, that is the stock MCS bar. One can tell by the exagerated bend that no one as yet felt the need to replicate.

 

yes, I believe they're called Zerk fittings [sic] that allow you to use a grease gun to lube the bushings w/out taking them apart, very cool stuff!

Also, update on the mysterious 19mm H-Sport bar. There is one, it's a 19mm tubular bar but it's effective rate is about 17.5mm. Not to be confused with the larger H-Sport tubular, which is actually 25mm, with an effective rate of 22.1mm.
To re-state, the effective 17.5mm tubular will feel very simliar to stock, whereas the effective 22.1mm tubular will have dramatically increased roll stiffness.

H-Sport: 2 bars for rear of MINI
#1. physically 19mm, tubular, effective rate is 17.5mm
#2. physically 25mm, tubular, effective rate is 22.1mm

Got it, good!
Ryan the VMA

 

H&R also makes a 19mm bar that is available only through ProMini. I have this bar on my car and we have it on others at the shop...if you do any other suspension mods such as coilovers this is ALL you need. Going to a 22mm bar for most people on the street is overkill and unless you know how to handle a car with oversteer I would not suggest it. I have a set of coilovers and sway bar on my car and on the soft setting there is only a very very slight hint of understeer - a very nice safe setup for aggressive street driving...on the stiff setting it is very balanced to a slight bit of oversteer but not much.

If your looking at doing track days a 22mm bar is most likely not what you want as the setup requirements for larger tracks is different then that of autox where you almost want as much oversteer as you can get in a FWD vehicle...but on a track you don't want nearly as much as at high speeds the effects of the oversteer change.

A car with a very slight bit of understeer is a MUCH safer car to drive then one with oversteer and for most people out there I would NOT suggest going as far as to creating any oversteer, on an autox it is different and at the slower speeds the oversteer that is desired is much more managable then on the street or on a track at speeds that some of us like to drive through the twisties.

 

I agree to a point with Casey. Understeer is a much safer condition to have on a street car.

Here's why:

When you go into a turn too hot, what is the natural tendancy - lift off the throttle right?

Here is how cars with different set ups will react to that:

Understeer - the car will tuck back in line - it was "pushing" to begin with if you were too hot.

Oversteer - the rear end will want to swap ends with the front.

Neutral - it completely depends on how you react - let off a bit, and the rear end will want to come around, but give it a bit of gas, and the car will push. If you get it just right, the car will tuck in line and be as fast as you can be through the corner.

The obvious goal is neutrality.

On the MCS, I feel a 22mm bar is the best solution. If you are going autocrossing, the stiff setting works to make the car neutral at lower speeds - you don't really want the car to oversteer at an autocross becasue of slaloms. If you are on the track (and it would have to be a relatively high speed track), you can sacrifice low speed handling with a little bit of understeer for stability at higher speed sweepers using the soft (or softer in the case of a three position bar) setting.

A 19mm bar with standard springs or any of the lowering springs (save for the H-Sports, then call me to discuss) on a sport + is tough to use to get the car dialed in for track, autocross, and street driving.

Again, these are just the testing impressions we have from setting the cars up at Second Creek Raceway once a week, autocrossing in BMWCCA and SCCA venues, and street driving using coilovers (Leda and KW) and aftermarket springs (H&R and H-Sport) as well as stock springs.

We do carry a 19mm two position bar with laser cut ends and polyurethane bushings if that is what suits your needs best (again, call to discuss).

Hope that helps.

Randy
720-841-1002

_________________

CLICK THE SIG PIC!

This ain't no Disco

 

The problem on the street though is in most cases there is not enough room for the car to really push...if the car starts to oversteer you can't get back in the gas and have the car slide across the lane into on coming traffic.

Track setup really varies...sweepers can be very difficult to setup for due to the high speeds and really wanting to keep the car very balanced...and reduce weight movement such as braking..this results in times where you are easing off the throttle...if your car has oversteer then you just swapped ends and are pointing the wrong direction....do this on the street and your in the ditch if your lucky or mangled with oncomming traffic if your not.

The bar diameter is only one part to go off of...the materials used makes a difference as well...I can make a 50mm (hypothetically saying it would fit) made from tin and it isn't going to have the same stiffness as the stock bar...now of course no one makes a bar from tin but proves the point...each manufactuer uses different alloys to make their bars that have different properties....so unless you compare two bars made the same way there will be variation....this again goes for hollow bars but I believe ryan already explained those eariler in this thread.

 

...which brings me to my point that there needs to be a reference measurement for sway bars, not an "effective rate" relative measurement.

[rant on]
I want to see lb/ft per degree in a graph! This will not only allow the consumer to make a more informed decision, but allow the manufacturer to get a visual of how the bar is actually working over it's torsion range. Commercial automotive tuning is still in the dark ages. None of us use "area under the curve" for engine mods (a much more realistic measurement than peak HP and torque).

We can only "feel" the vehicles dynamics so well. We are losing a huge percentage of handling potential by "roughing it" with the butt-dyno.
[rant off]

_________________

 

Hey Ryan,

Isn't the butt dyno why we are doing all this in the first place?

Casey is refering to the modulus of the material. That is what gives a bar its effective rate. Because of all of the differences in material and construction, to give a consumer a graph might be a bit more confusing than an "effective" rate. That rate should be apples to apples. When I give an effective rate on the H-Sport bar, it is based on the modulus of the bar, the cross section, and how it relates to a spring steel bar like the Alta, Madness or H&R. If you note the differences in modulus between the solid bars (except for the H&R which I don't have), they are minial. That keeps them in the same range with all other constants the same.

There are many variables that go into the set up of a car, which is why I mentioned to call for more info. Things like camber, caster, toe, spring rates, rebound and compression all play into what makes a neutral handling car.

More of our testing is done at the track than anywhere else, but that is exactly why we also autocross and drive the cars on the streets (including the absolutely incredible streets in the Rockies). If I screw up the handling of the car here - people die! Seriously, when you have a couple thousand foot drop off without a guard rail, you need to be certain you haven't turned the car into an oversteering fiend.

There are enough folks out there with the larger bar, so I'm sure a few testimonials might clarify things. I have never had a complaint on the set ups I recommend.

I'm sure, in fact I know, that there are situations where a 19mm bar would be ideal, so I'm not saying at all that a 22mm is a be all end all bar - that's why I carry several.

Hope that helps!

Randy

 

Randy,

With all of the new sway bars being installed in S's, some of us with regular coopers (not Sport Plus suspension) are looking at installing the leftover "S" sway bars. What kind of handling change (over/understeer) can we expect?

Johnna


>>For the Sport Plus suspension, you could go with a 22mm bar. The H-sport is the best one out there, but is also mid-production, so it isn't available with the new bends just yet. I have several on th list for it, so I'd be happy to help you out - but I want to let you know there is about a two week wait. The Alta and I believe Madness bars are in stock. It just depends on your timeline.
>>
>>Thanks for your business! Let me know if you have any other questions.
>>
>>Randy
>>720-841-1002

 

Jo - the car will still understeer...even if you were to do the Shocks and Sway bar from the SS+...If i recall correctly the springs between the SS and SS+ were the same...but you will get a bit less understeer.

 

Jo,

If you had the stock Cooper suspension, it would be a worthwhile mod. I have I think 6 of the stock S bars laying around, so feel free to call if you want one.

If you have the Sport + suspension, it is the same bar.

Randy
720-841-1002