Anybody tried Mini Mania's Positive Steering Amplifier (PSA) yet? The white paper on their website seems fairly sound--their explanation of what it does and why it works.

Link to the product: http://tinyurl.com/6ant6q

I just received a set and found that the bolts were different size than the instructions said they were, and that the bolts also seem to be about 10-11mm too long--bottoming out in the carrier long before the ball joint plate and PSA is tight.

I called Mini Mania yesterday (Sunday, they were obviously closed), and the phone system prompt told me to hit "0" to get to the customer service voicemail box. Pressed "0". Rang and rang and rang. Finally hung up. Sent an email via their online form last night, and no response today.

Anybody else have a set that "mounted right up"? I'd really like some feedback so I can get the car put back together.

 

This thread belongs in 1st gen suspension.

The main issue I have with Mania's rip-off of the DIY spacers is they completely fail to address the massive bump-steer they will induce, especially being so aggressively thick. I've found it takes only about 0.1" of pivot misalignment between suspension and steering to create significant bump-steer and subsequent handling problems.

Regards,
Ryan

 

Thanks Mark. Thread now located in the proper forum.

 

To use those spacers your car would have to be lowered about 3+ inches. How low is your car?
I'm with Ryan on his entire post.

Added: I see now that you are running H-sport springs. So.... send those spacers back to the vendor! Why would you buy these? Not meaning to come down on you, but I am curious how you came to the thinking that these were something that you would need.
If you want to correct bump-steer then just add about 3/16" spacer on your inside front control arm ball joint. Fact is that you will NEVER feel the difference, so just leave it alone.

 

I agree...and most bumpsteer problems can be understood this way; the tie rod angle should almost always point directly to the instant center. A little deviation up or down may not make a big difference, but I would expect that spacer to create lots of problems...the outer tie rod needs to be shimmed.

Greg - you going to the ALMS at LRP in July?

 

onasled,

I'm actually running TSW springs with an H-sport anti-roll bar.

Why would I buy these? Well the car is lowered. And depending on who a person listens to, that either creates no problem or major problems. If you read the white paper, Mini Mania's value for the lowered car in their data table is "lowered .82" which isn't far off of what the TSW springs lower the car. So I thought, huh, maybe there are problems with such a slight amount of drop. I searched NAM to see if anyone else had them BEFORE I purchased and came up empty, so I decided to give them a shot.

Meb, thanks for your constructive criticism. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem like a man who knows what he's talking about.

Onasled, you need to back it off a bit and remember that there are a lot of people here to learn--ones who don't have background in prepping cars for racing or degrees in engineering (not sure if you do or not). Any knowledge or value that you bring to this thread is diminished with comments like these: "Why would you buy these?" and "You'll NEVER feel the difference, so just leave it alone". More than a bit harsh--basically telling me that I'm an idiot for buying these parts. If we follow that logic out, should we all PM you and ask before we make an aftermarket purchase that could have a detrimental effect on the drivability of the car?

Customizing a car (at least for me)is all about the experience. Sometimes it's an improvement, sometimes it's a mistake. Apparently this was one of those times when it was a mistake. Even so, I still enjoy the experience.

Thanks for weighing in, the parts will be returned if they're of no value on my mildly lowered car.

 

I think Greg was trying to help, his manner usually matter of fact. His suggestion is the actual correction for the theoretical problem I described. another easy way to figure this out is to basically mimic the stock relationship beteen the tie rod end orientation and the control arm. You may still get some bumpsteer because the steering rack is still lower. This was a very big problem with Acura's RSX when it first came out; this was Acura's first Mac Strut in a long while and the entire rack had to be mounted on new brakets to get rid of bumpsteer.

As is true with many things in life, one thing affects another; altering the pick-up of that joint will alter the instan centers and roll centers, and, the side view roll centers - which affect dive and squat during braking and acceleration. This may be good, but the consequences are not always so clean.

 

Talked to Mini Mania this morning. They are aware of the problem with the bolts being too long. I inquired about sending the PSA back for credit and they said that it would be no problem.

Thanks to those who chimed in, and to Mini Mania for standing behind it's products.

 

I installed these on my 2002 MCS last week as well as Alta PSRS bushings AND m7 coilovers (with a conservative 1-1.25" drop) too. And then I tracked the car Sunday at Willow Springs. AND also did about 100 miles of canyon carving too. Because there was so many new parts all at once, it is very hard to know if the Mini Mania units really helped that much. I can truthfully tell you that they did not cause any bump steer issues. The car handles great, the steering is light, handling very neutral. My instructor drove the car and said it was "well sorted"

I did not want to post this at all after Onasled's comments, but I think now the thread has cooled off a bit. Handling "feel" is an extremely subjective issue. For the BMWCCA Track days, timing laps is verboten, so I can't tell that way.


I could take them off before the next Track Day at Buttonwillow, but I don't think I will - the car is handling really well.

PS - The bolts I got with them were correct length???

 

...if you are driving on smooth roads you will not notice the bumpsteer problem so mush...just throwing that out there for what it's worth.

 

I agree with meb. Also, just installing these spacers will not create an "internet bumpsteer issue" that will cause the car to violently launch into the ditch. The bumpsteer you will experience will make the car feel "blocky" going into corners and hitting undulations during cornering. It's not a twitchy feeling, but one of tank-like stability, so much so the car will not pivot on its own axis like it used to when the front suspension was stock.

 

meb -
Yes, I know. That is why I did the 100 miles of canyons too. Some roads were pretty rough. No discernible bump steer that I can feel. I am very pleased with the way this car is handling.

 

The roads are so bad here in NY that bumpsteer is common even with a Ferrari Our roads are seriously bad!

 

QFT! Mushroomed strut tower central.

 

Hmmm, ... a little bummed by how my post seemed to be interpreted. Maybe it's because I'm 52 and I don't have internet savvy.
Sorry my post was taken in such a negative way. I asked why because I really wanted to know why the OP would by these. I was honestly curious. Did the vendor talk him into it? Did he just think that because a vendor sells it that it must be for him? I was just interested.
Fact is that these are an exact copy of the ones I designed and built for my race car. This car as huge suspension mods and is why they are needed.
I posted pictures (see below) on Bimmerforums of these and a month or so later MM had them for sale. Also, I miss-wrote and said something in connection with these to bump steer. They have nothing to do with bumpsteer as adding them changes NO tie rod geometry , but have everything to do with roll centers.

Anyway, sorry to those that don't know me in person like MEB does. I think if you did you would understand more about where I am coming from. Seriously, I'm pretty bummed that you got so upset.
Greg V

 

onasled I didn't take your post as being offensive or negative in any way when I read it. Unfortunately the forum does not show facial expression or tone of voice when reading posts, so it's up to the reader to input these things where the words are. It seemed to me you were trying to help. I'm sure jrlombard simply misinterpreted where you were coming from with regards to your post. Take it easy and have a good one!

 

I bought them, had them schipped to Europe and installed yesterday.

With me the bolts also were too long

Mounting the spacers gives A LOT more toe, one has to adjust toe immediately.

The spacers do as they are named. The steering wheel needs more travel the 1/4 of the turn. Turn-in is therefore not so harsch anymore, it results in more precise steering at high speeds and the first 1/4 turn of the steering wheel.
It also seems the body rolls less, it just feels more stable, more composed.

I do not know yet it will get me quicker around the corner, I will know the next time I go to the Nurburgring.

 

Onasled, with your race set-up did you have to raise the steering rack, inner ball joint and lower control arm rear pivot point to make you smooth and fast on the track? How much lower is your MINI racer?

Way to go on innovating/tweaking your MINI race suspension!

Jeremy

 

Thanls Jeremy,
Car is maybe 3" lower then stock.
The only things that needed doing in the front were to make this spacer, slight spacers on the inner ball joint, solid rear control arm bushings and to the bump steer correction part shown in the picture. No room to raise the rack. Not sure how smooth it is but it is quite fast.

 

Did you offset the lower control arm pivot point higher with your hard mount or did you keep the pivot in the centre(just curious)?

Riding 'fast' does come at a cost I suppose.

Do you have any track or in car videos of your MINI racer?

Jeremy

 

Same location.
Depending on how things go I may completely redesign the front and rear suspension this winter, but honestly I think I may be very preoccupied with how I'm going to afford heat. :(
I'm at the track now, Gateway International, and should be taking some in-car vids tomorrow. Will post when I get home in a few days.

 

Ok then, thanks Onasled! Yeah fuel/heat costs are really ramping up these days in Canada too. ie 1.42 cents/litre today for only 87 octane. At least we drive 4 cylinders.

It'll be sweet to see your vids. Good luck this weekend!

Jeremy

 

I am very confused by the posts on this topic. I have read Mini Mania's tech article and the recent July-Aug 2008 MC2 article (by Dr. Obnsx) that say the PSA should be used for cars lowered about 1". Then I read these posts where the NAM suspension experts say the part is not required. Whom am I to believe, the people who have used the part or the NAM suspension experts? I think the NAM experts.

I was just about ready to order the PSA part but now I do not know what to do, especially after reading the recent MC2 article. Any more reviews from people who have installed the PSA?

 

I have (2) 2002 MCS's. one with the PSA and one without. They both have coilovers and are lowered moderately, about 1" - 1.5 " The car with the PSA has been on two Track Days (Willow Springs and Buttonwillow) since they were installed. The PSA has made the steering feel slower and less twitchy than the other car, which is good for high speed track work. The other car is a canyon carver and the twitchier (faster?) steering feel is fine for me. There are probably factors at work here too, but for a street car that is tracked I would recommend the PSA.

m7 Coilovers on the PSA equipped car. KW Competition 2 Coilovers on the one without. HSport Comp. bars front and rear on both.

 

Great stuff here...and you have to appreciate Greg in person; no BS and very freindly...and if you are a friend, a true friend, he'll let you know how he thinks without fearing you might walk away and cry. I prefer friends who are brutally honest!

...and so, I didn't see you at the LRP ALMS Greg...LRP is quite different!