Mike, I purchased these after Sid (MSFITOY) was talking about them and installed them yesterday. I do feel a difference and the roundabouts are an easier carve. The bolts that came wih mine were perfect. Took about 20 minutes to install and test over the speed bumps at church. It was also interesting to me that MC2 had a article on this very mod when I picked up the free copy at MTTS. I like them so far a lot. Paul

 

Thanks for the inputs. The MC2 article is what got me thinking about the mod again. I had originally read these post which basically said the mod was a waste and caused bump steer but it appeared that the post was confused on the bump steer. Then the posts diverged into a discussion of personalities. When I read the MC2 article, it almost seemed like a mandatory mod for lowered Minis. I think I will give them a try.

 

The PSA does affect alignment, so I strongly recommend a post-install front end alignment for best results.

Ken

 

Which is the ONLY reason any of you have seen a difference in steering input!

Any of you out there that can 'show' me "why" these have anything to do with steering, then please do. In my opinion and research, they don't. Anyone adding these and feeling a difference is doing so because you have changed toe considerably.
These are only for role center correction and nothing more. And this is way to much correction for most street lowering.
Have not read MC2 on this, but would like to hear what they say.

 

I don't know how you can be so definite about that, not having done any research that you mention of this mod, though you are entitled to your own opinion no matter how baseless.

Anywho, I'm having a complete alignment done on Monday morning, and the fellow that's doing it knows a significant amount about suspensions, both tracking and street, so I'll get his take on it as well as offer my opinion based on actually doing it.

 

Baseless? Have you read this entire thread?

 

...before we all get hot headed, is this a roll center correction devise??? And with repsect to all, much can be learned from a simple drawing...the track bares the fruit of development work on a table or computer.

Many production based race car teams concentrate their energy on correcting roll center location and migration after lowering so that they either maintain or improve weight transfer. And weight transfer begins at the roll centers and moves on to the center(s) of gravity and then to every other part of the car based upon its architecture or weight displacement. So the relationship between the center of gravity and roll centers is a key ingredient to handling.

Now, I have zero experience with this device, but I do wonder if it is out of place adapted to mildly lowered cars...

 

Typically a remark by someone who has doen no research and has no experience with the PSA.

Because then you would know that the Mini has so much toe-in that it is not drivable anymore, it first has to be aligned again after mounting the PSA.

 

forget it. I don't know why I bother.

 

Don't quit on this discussion just broaden your remarks to include what research you have done.
My comment earlier was a bit overboard, I shouldn't have said "baseless".

I'm interested in this part and had my alignment checked this morning. Here's what was found upon first inspection, after installation of the PSA:
Camber (same as before) L= -2.4 R= -1.8
Caster L=4.1 R=3.9
Toe L=0.73 R=0.69 degrees
Total Toe= 1.42 degrees

Corrected:
Camber = -1.8
Caster same
Toe L= 0.16 R=0.20
Total toe: 0.35

I believe the toe in after installation is what made the steering feel quite different and now that it is corrected it "feels" more like it did prior to installation of the PSA.

Bumpsteer - not an issue before, still not an issue - tested thoroughly today.

I do have some camber issues with the previous (1 year ago) installation of the Ireland Fixed Camber plates that I've decided to remedy by removing and installing adjustable camber plates from Alta (Eibach I believe). I have not been able to get the camber in the front to be the same on both front corners and I thought it was mushrooming on the driver's side but none is noticeable and I have the M7 plates installed for several years now.

It has been mentioned in other threads that the Ireland fixed camber plates do require some heavy adjusting via shaking or other means to get the camber equal on both sides. But then some have had no problems at all with them.

 

So, based on the original designer's (Greg) comments that the PSA is not required or a benefit for a 1" lowered MCS and Paul's comments that his MCS feels about the same before and after, I would think I should save my money for other suspension parts. I am still a little confused as to why MC2 (Matt) endosed the PSA. Seems like it does not hurt anything (after an alignment) but is not worth spending $120.

 

Sorry if I have misunderstood you. I thought you meant that positive feel comes from the high toe-in but on my Eibach PSS9 suspension (lowest setting on the front) and 1,5 degrees negative camber there was so much toe-in that the car was not drivable without toe adjustment.

I know for sure that first quarter of steer in the steering has become much better on steer-in at high speed cornering. More precise because the wheels turns less in the first quarter of steering.

 

I don't get MC2, nor is it in any stores around here, so I have no idea what was written on these. I'd really like to know if someone wants to do a brief overview.

Understand that the ratio of correction when lowering is not a 1 to 1. When you lower a car 1", the amount you correct is way less then 1". I like the guys at Mini Mania, but I have to say that I don't believe the homework was done on these. It's just an exact copy of mine, and my race suspension is quite modified, and the car sits very low, and I run a ton of camber at this point. This, along with wheel width and back spacing which is also part of the equation that results in these spacer sizes. I am not the expert here. I deferred to my friend who has been building race cars for over 30 years. I learn from him, and understand this stuff for the most part, but could not give you exact ratios, nor would I really want to. Keeping an edge in racing is somewhat important.

The result in installing these is in line with what is reported here. You will not feel any difference in your cars handling if it is still a street driven car that is used on the track. You won't feel a thing as the part is not being used correctly. It would be like installing a turbo blow off valve before you installed the turbo.

 

How?

 

I don't know how, but the effect is unmistakable there!
Very noticeable if you come from a stock Mini and then in my Mini.
Turn in is less abrupt and therefore more precise at higher speeds.
On the limit on the track body roll on turn-in is less, weight-shift is less abrupt.
I have also read other postings which confirm this feeling.

Unfortunately I have not received the correct bolts from MiniMania yet, I was one of those who got the wrong bolts that were too long.
It caused some inconvenience when mounting the PSA. MiniMania has promised to send me the correct bolts but that was probably before they checked they had to send them to the Netherlands.

 

first on timing.... Someone sent a set of as best I can tell, welded prototypes to Don at Mini Mania based on his experience with them at autoX. This was a good three months before they went on sale. (So Greg, this wasn't a rapid "theft" of your idea, but to be totally honest, if you post a picture in public, or don't protect ideas you have, then don't be surprised if someone sells them for a profit. Such is the preditory nature of business.) I put them on my car and ran them for a month. Mostly I was looking for issues with bumpsteer, and found not much at all.

As for the roll center, MEB your right, do the graphic, you lower the front ball joint a bit less than an inch. If you lower the car about the same amount, you restor the stock roll center and keep the roll-couple that the car had stock. If you don't do that, then the angle of the lower arm changes with lowering as you drop the car and you end up increasing the roll coupling. Really, it's pretty self appearent to me that if you lower your car the same amount as the thickness of any ball joint spacer like this your instantly restore stock roll-couple. So now you get the advantage of a lower CoG without increased roll coupling that increases lean!

Greg, why do you say that these are only good with 3" of lowering or so? For all the reasons listed above they ought to help as soon as you put about 1" of drop on the car, really, seems to me that they will make the roll coupling about what it would have been with 1" less drop than the car is set at.

Really, when I had a set first put on, I was most concerned about bump steer (I have an old mustang so I know all about it, you should see how many shims it needs to get rid of it!) and was surprised that it was much less than I'd thought would be there.

Matt

 

Well, I certainly can argue about what you feel from what you think is the result of installing these. But really, don't jump all over me claiming that I have no understanding of these things, when in fact I very much do, and then tell me that you don't know how they work. K?

Until someone can tell me how these change steering ratio, then I have to state that I think it's all in your head, or it's something else that you may have changed.

 

the steering ratio is unchanged. The only thing that could change how much input vs directional change would be something having to do with scrub or understeer/oversteer or something like that. I'd have to think about it but I'd have to say that nothing jumps to mind right now, unless your toe is so whacked out that it's comeing into play. Geometrically, there is a very, very, very tiny change to steering ratio, but it's a second order effect and drops in the first order approximation.

Matt

ps, I liked em too! But steering feel is very subjective.

 

I have the picture of the welded ones. I communicated with Don on this and have already made it clear to him that I have little to no issue with this. So, I'm not 'complaining' that Mini Mania is selling them at all.

 

Mania still hasn't addressed how adding these products add significant bump-steer, let alone how to fix it. I can't believe those that have these can't feel how dramatic the bump steer change is; it feels like an arm has broken or there's an inch of toe-in or some such intensity. I can only guess that those that have these are trying to defend their purchase with no knowledge of suspension, or ignoring their knowledge to write a sponsored review.

Let's just make this clear; this is probably a well made product, but the vendor is seriously misrepresenting the impacts of the product, to the detriment of vehicle safety to those that don't fully understand the geometry changes the product induces.

Mania needs to come clean and admit that these pieces "change the feel of the steering" by altering the bumpsteer geometry, and create an outer wheel steering angle reduction during mid-corner bumps that cause the car to drive straighter when the suspension compresses.

Want to fix this problem? Plan to use these products strictly as a roll center changing device and build your own means to realign the steering tie rod.

I'm not trying to create undue heat for Mania, they brought it upon themselves by misrepresenting these spacers.

 

I drove them, didn't ignore squat, and found that the bump steer effects weren't as bad as I'd thought they'd be. Sure, adding the stuff to the tie rod is the best of all posible worlds, but I was surprised that I didn't feel that the effects were that bad. This could be cause I have less roll than others, that I'd have to think about.

But once again this is about trading compramises. You lower increasing roll coupling. You fix some of the roll couple but don't fix the tie rod geometry. One can always go farther and address that as well.

So, those that use them and like them are wrong? Stupid? Clueless? Or just happier with a different set of compramises?

Matt

 

The point is people should know they're changing the behavior of the geometry by altering how the car steers; it's much more serious than something trivial like a cat-back exhaust. I don't see how adding bump-steer is beneficial in any street-car circumstance. It's not balancing a compromise, it's adding sloppy engineering by only doing half the job.

 

but WTF, people screwing with thier cars without understanding is a time honored tradition!

At least they are an easy install and removal. Those that don't like the different set of deamons can get back to where they were very quickly.

Matt

 

These will have NO effect on bump steer at all. Matt was right in not feeling any, because once again, they have no effect on any steering geometry.
When installing these, remember they only change the angle of the lower control arm. The strut remains in the exact same plan, but for a slight positive camber angle due to the now shorter, in effect, control arm. All the steering is attached to the strut, so NOTHING really has been changed there. There has been NO change in plane of the steering box, tie rods or steering arms when this is installed. NO ADDED BUMP STEER.

The Mini suffers very little to nil with bump steer anyway when lowered an inch.

 

uhhh, are we talking about the same things here? These move the lower control arm outer ball joint don't they?

When you de-parallel and/or unequal length the suspension arm in relation to the steering arm you create bumpsteer in some fashion.