Tried doing a search but did not find what I was looking for.

I used to have a 911, I used the break very little, I.E. I down-shifted to let
the engine slow the car down, making sure to keep the rpm's up. Is this
how the my MCS should be driven also, it seems to want to preform like
a sports car, and once I get the pulley/ecu I am wanting to really have fun
but I wanted to make sure the car can take the down shifting or should I use
the breaks more? I hope this makes sense to everyone. thanks for any help,
and I dont know where to put this so I put it on the Mini Talk board.

 

I'm downshifting a lot and the car now has nearly 32,000 on it without any adverse effects.

 

Dave:

What's your verdict on the MCS' 6-speed Getrag box?

 

FWIW, the engine is there to make the car go fast, the brakes to slow it down.
You can certainly use engine braking to slow the car, but unless you're matching revs you're placing unnecessary strain on the clutch and engine. Not to say it can't take it - maybe it breaks at 150k instead of 200k...
Brake pads are cheap - engines and trannies much less so. You decide which one you want to wear out first.

 

My 6-speed box still feels really good. I like it a lot.

 

While I use engine braking often, I am reminded of the Great Wag's comment, "It's cheaper to replace break pads than the clutch." Still the Getrag box seems rock solid. And I already have the pulley. Get one you'll be glad you did.

 

Here you go. MCO thread entitled "Downshifting"

(I thought this was going to be a thread about road rage... )

 

>>FWIW, the engine is there to make the car go fast, the brakes to slow it down.
>>You can certainly use engine braking to slow the car, but unless you're matching revs you're placing unnecessary strain on the clutch and engine. Not to say it can't take it - maybe it breaks at 150k instead of 200k...
>>Brake pads are cheap - engines and trannies much less so. You decide which one you want to wear out first.

But downshifting is so much more fun
. This car is all about having fun. That said, I normally let the breaks do most of the work.

 

thanks for all the comments, and for the link, I must have spelled it wrong.

I understand about pads being much cheaper than the other, I just wanted to
know if I was the only one being a bit agressive with my MCS, I am 1 month old and
have 4800 miles, I was nice thru the breakin but now I am tyring to enjoy the car
for what it is, shifting in and out of turns etc... is so much fun, this is way better
than my 911 ever was, not to bash the 911, but for the whole package, and when I get the pulley/ecu and then a better exhaust, OMG.

I can not wait to ride with Randy, maybe I will learn something "Like how to hold on"



Thanks again everyone.

 

Davequick said it best on the other thread. Downshifting is more expensive because of the wear it puts on the clutch plate. However, as I learned when I was young-dumb and full of you know what, clutch dropping at 5000 rpm can do damage to a clutch much faster.
RPM matched downshifting isn't all that hard and if you think about it, these days most clutches will last to 100K. Are you going to drive the MCS to 200K? Maybe, but likely not so you're talking about one clutch rebuild during the life of the car... not a big expense over that many miles.
BTW, love your 10-spoke wheels... sweet!
_________________
[img]albums/album25/aln.gif[/img] see my MCS at VinceAndJessica.com
Alta 15% pulley, Stebro exhaust, Pipercross intake, Progress 22mm rear anti-sway bar.

 

Brakes are for slow, throttle is for go.

R

 

According to The Straight Dope it causes more wear and tear on much more expensive parts. But there are reasons that we do it, and there are some advantages to do it. My main reasoning is that i'm in the right gear if/when I need to start to move...

Rocketboy_X

 

Sure brake pads are cheap... but what about rotors? They are a lot more expensive than brake pads.
Also, someone mentioned this before, but anyone for rev matching? From what I know, it puts a lot less strain on the clutch and transmission and everything else to do with it.


That said, I just do a combination of both. If the stop is a bit of a distance away, and just brakes if it's too close.

 

Here is my 2 cents worth...

1. I agree with Davbret, throttle=go, brakes=slow.
2. Don't EVER use your TRANSMISSION to slow. In other words, don't let the revs drop between shifts and then simply disengage the clutch, forcing the current slow engine speed to slow the transmission as the clutch engages. This is what heel-and-toe is all about - matching engine speed, braking, and clutching all at the same time. If you are going to downshift to slow, let yoru engine braking do the work and NOT your transmission. THIS is what puts all the pressure on the clutch and tranny.
3. No matter what, you always have better control over braking if you use your brakes. That's what they are there for. Do you think F1 brakes get glowing red from the driver's use of the engine and tranny for braking? - NO, they use the brakes harder than anything else. Watch the brake dust billow up from the car when they stop in the pits.
4. Brake pads and rotors are cheaper than transmissions, better designed to do the job, and more controllable. Use your brakes unless you know how to heel-and-toe.

 

DownShifting BAD BAD BAD BAD

Brakes GOOD GOOD GOOD GOOD

The Clutch WILL Burn if you drive like that
You Will Lose
About $2500 for the replacement and service!

Brakes... Much Cheaper!

 

>>1. I agree with Davbret, throttle=go, brakes=slow.
>>2. Don't EVER use your TRANSMISSION to slow.

I agree with you 100% on the street. However I know that in all-out racing the drivers often use the engine to help out the fading brakes a bit, so there may be rare occasions to engine brake.

 

The only times I drive aggressively are on the twisty canyons, away from the public and if I am really in the zone, I don't know how I can "avoid" downshifting and/or braking. It becomes imperative that the engine is in it's powerband to enter, keep steady through and pull out. Before you enter a turn, you gotta brake before you enter if you're (most probably) going fast. Some trail-braking works really well to cut out the understeer for some turns here and there. What I'm trying to say is if you are driving aggressively, things are going to wear out whether you like it or not and I'm not going to try to save my pads if I want to have some fun. There's no reason not to drive the MINI like a sports car, it has the potential to really bring out some fun. There's no other feeling like downshifting/double clutching/heel & toeing and just blasting through a turn one after another and accelerating away.

 

When I first started seeing the responses to not using the engine for braking and the wear and tear consequences on the clutch and transmission, I thought the comments were tongue-in-cheek. When I saw they were for real my first thought is why would you want to buy a car with a great shifting 6 speed Getrag transmission and then not have fun and use it? If you learn to match the engine speed properly in downshifting there should be minimal wear on the clutch, and if you are not making ham-handed shifts both up shifting and downshifting there should be minimal wear and tear on the gearbox. If wearing out the clutch and gearbox is such a concern buy a car with an automatic transmission.

 

I too am a big fan of the double-clutching/rev matching downshift. Once you get used to doing it, it is so smooth, I can't imagine that there is too much stress on the drivetrain.

In my opinion, downshifting (in addition to being fun!) actually helps me out in ordinary driving. For instance, imagine you are approaching a redlight... if you just use your brakes to slow down, and the light suddenly turns green while you are still moving, you sort of have to figure out what gear you should be in or if the car is going to lurch when you engage the clutch, etc. etc. However, if you rev-match and downshifting when the light turns green, then you simply need to press the gas and go... there's no guesswork because you're always in the right gear.

I remember when I let my mother test drive the MINI... she drives a manual VW so I figured she'd do just fine, but when she went to make a turn, she would leave it in 5th, hold in the clutch and brake... and then once she made the turn, she was scrambling to fiigure out what gear she should be in. All I could do is grin and bear it, while thinking to myself, "Jebus, that was *horrible*!"

When I need to stop qucker than normal, I tend to use heal-toe type braking in conjunction with the double-clutched downshifting.

Once you get used to rev-matching, you can make your downshifts so smooth that it feels like an automatic! It's not terribly hard to learn either. The MCS is the first manual car I've ever owned, and I started to practice rev-matching my downshifts the day I brought it home. I've driven that way ever since. The rev-matching skill has other benefits too... like allowing you to smoothly downshift 2 gears at a time to quickly pass another vehicle.

 

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough....

I use engine braking ALL the time.... I do it as much as anyone...

BUT

I make sure that the ENGINE is doing the braking and not the CLUTCH and TRANNY. I always rev-match so that the transmission isn't taking the hit.

 

I think the comments made regarding wear and tear on the drivetrain were specifically targeted at those who do not rev match/double clutch, etc, but instead rely on the synchros to bring everything to the same speed. Simply shifting into a low gear while traveling at high speed can cause excessive wear and tear, not to mention it makes for a nasty ride. :smile:

See ya,
JS

 

>>The key thing to remember is to go to neutral and blip that engine hard before shifting into a lower gear if you're doing any extreme downshifts. Just remember that with downshifting you need to rev the engine (while in neutral) to the same RPM's as you'd experience while accelerating in the target gear at the speed you're currently traveling.
>>

Why the need to be in neutral? I match revs when I downshift, but don't go to neutral.....just engage clutch, match revs, move shift lever to lower gear and let the clutch out.... What do you gain by the move to neutral?

Sorry if this is a stupid question....but I've tried it both ways and don't see or feel any difference.....

Thanks,

Satchmo

_________________
Chili Red MCS, Premium, Sport, Cold Packages, 17" S-lites (white).

 

I always thought the double clutching was for older cars without good or any sychros.

I took an agressive driving school called Chin Motorsports. It is very popular in the southeast. We get to take our street cars on race tracks and let them stretch their legs. They told us that if we have not mastered heal toeing that the track was not the best place to learn. Basically they said it is cheaper to replace brake pads that a tranny or clutch.

I have not taken delivery of my MCS so I am not entirely sure how a front wheel drive car responds to downshifts for slowing. I dont know if it would be ideal in a heavy braking situation it seems like it would make the car want to lock up the wheels being as the front tires are doing everything.

If you have mastered the art of heal toeing I cannot think of a reason not to do it. From what I have heard and read these trannies are rock solid and are up for the task.

Happy motoring.

BTW - Can someone more experianced with FWD cars in performance situations tell me if my assumption above is correct.

 

Well, everything is connected. :smile: By going to neutral, the transmission's rotational speed will exactly match the engine. So, when you blip the throttle in neutral, everything spins up at the same time.

If you blip the throttle with the clutch depressed, you are raising the engine RPMs up to where it needs to be, but the transmission's RPM's continue to decelerate as long as you have the clutch depressed. So, you are getting half of the system's rotations to speed. What happens when you release the clutch is that the synchros quickly engage and bring the transmission up to the same rotational speed as the engine. Because the engine is already at the higher RPM's, you may not feel the synchros, but that action is causing some wear and tear on the synchros.

The method you describe is manually bringing the engine up to speed, but spinning up the transmission with the synchros. That's better than simply downshifting without doing anything, which would have the transmission spinning up the engine...and that's the situation you can really feel.

Basically, with the car in gear, the engine and transmission are rotating at the same speed. If you depress the clutch, the transmission will slowly decelerate. If you go to neutral and release the clutch, again the transmission will come up to the same speed as the engine.

So, the idea is to go to neutral, increase the engine speed (and thus the transmission speed) to beyond the speed required by the downshift. That way, when you depress the clutch to go to the lower gear, and all of the revs begin to drop, by the time you engage the lower gear, everything should be spinning at almost the exact speed required by the lower gear ratio.

All of this happens in an instant. It just takes a lot to explain it.

See ya,
JS

 

I should also add that you do not have to double-clutch. Your throttle blip with the clutch in is fine and is much quicker and easier than double-clutching. This whole discussion was on the issue of wear and tear, and double-clutching should cause less wear on the synchros.

For those that can dance, here's something you might like to read:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...2/article.html

See ya,
JS