First let me say I am an ecstatic Mini owner. My special series 2010 Camden in Horizon blue gets approving nods from pedestrians and drivers alike in a Mini-filled Paris. But I need a second city car that can also double as a weekend road racer.


Sure I could wait for the new 'made-in-BMW' potentially more reliable Cooper S or its corollary JCW turbo-engined Minis. Up to 2010 these have had more than a fair share of mechanical issues - yes, possibly due to Peugeot's quality control and dubious outsourcing of parts - or even wait until March 2011 for the Cooper SD with BMW's 2.0 liter engine from its One Series. But is high torque the most important thing that makes a road racer?


Reliability issues of the S and JCW models brought me to buy a Justa plain vanilla Cooper without the S. Is this because a turbo will ALWAYS destroy the reliability of a 'blown' engine? Nope. There have been many instances of turbo engines which, properly maintained, give little trouble over time to their owners even if they understandably due to the increased stress on materials will have slightly shorter engine life than a naturally aspirated version using the same components.


So, while we recognize or not that Mini had better assess this situation and take measures to provide reliability to its up-market models which clients feel entitled to respect in the days of 'unbreakable' hybrids, this brings loyal Mini buyers to consider alternatives if they require BOTH performance and trouble-free ownership.


This is what brought me to consider another option in a similar small car segment, measuring actually a few inches less than a Mini hatch. The Abarth 500 based upon the Fiat 500 similarly to how the JCW is based upon the Mini One.


THE TIMES OF LONDON: Fiat 500 Abarth - the cute kid on the block


Today they have upgraded this car to 160hp with a variable geometry turbo which isn't found on city cars, unless you consider the Porsche Turbo to be one, giving it constant surge with a steady power curve. Also it is a lighter car with a compelling power to weight ratio, which gets even better with higher output optional versions with increased boost and improved exhaust.


From the onset, were I to choose between the two I'd go Mini. What this thread is about isn't whether it is better than a Mini. It is whether the best SECOND city car would be another Mini or instead an Abarth 500?


For starters, it appears that as a choice for long drives on highways or for general accident safety the Mini which is heavier with a beefier chassis and seemingly thicker unibody metal would win hands down. So if it's for a commuter car, the Mini would probably win out. However for city use, with occasional road racing or fun punching around the countryside, then the Abarth 500 seems to be a serious contender.


You will have guessed, I am currently in the market for a second car meeting that last specification. For the city I can't imagine why an Abarth 500 would be a lesser car than a Mini. For road racing the verdict isn't out yet. Is it less balanced? Is it quicker? Is it more fun? Does it get scary? This is yet to be determined, and is the motive for posting this thread here, in the main Mini forum.


Why, will you ask, am I not posting this in the Abarth forums? For a simple reason: they are seemingly all "Abarth Mad" and so enthused by their cars that from the outside they seem like a cult. I think it's partly due to the fun factor - something to be said for joining them - but also I think for the hard core sensations of a possibly less sophisticated car that transmits more sensations than our more engineered and optimized Minis.


Here is a link to the main Abarth website in Italy as well as the Abarth 500 configuration software in English from their UK website.


Abarth's homepage


Abarth 500 configurator


One of the main complaints have been handling and steering feel under speed. This is because Abarth uses software torque limiters to compensate for the 500's high center of gravity with its associated handling limits. The Esse Esse package includes H&R springs, self-adjusting Koni shocks and Brembo brakes so there's a good chance a lot of those issues may be better sorted out now.


Also a number of preparations can boost the Abarth 500's output to anywhere from 220 to 360hp which pushes the limits quite a ways further. Now whether it is more fun to drive, gives a better road feel, is perkier and more responsive telegraphing feedback for every instruction you give, is possibly the case. But is it really the best complement for a 2-car garage already housing a Mini?


It complies with much of what is the appeal of the Mini: Retro sixties styling and a fun loving approach to transportation and travel. Although it doesn't photograph as well as a Mini, looking a lot better in the flesh than on a computer screen, the Abarth 500 is very appealing both for its cute muffin shape as well as for its more clearly sporting styling that even a JCW - not to mention its rumble at idle even with the stock exhaust, and that its price is as competitive as its performance can't hurt.


Is it less well built? Reports of paint peeling off within the first six months might be a warning of other quality issues. Some complain of dash buttons falling off, and the aluminum clutch pedal can break off if hit by too enthusiastic a vacuum cleaner spout. But isn't this part of its Italian heritage, keeping things light weight and not wasting anything by over-engineering a car? These are minor gripes, and would be more than offset if its powerplant proves to be more reliable under intense use than the Turbo Minis.


I shall be looking further into these cars, which seem to be getting better as after market sports tuners are offering versions which push the envelope quite a bit further spurring Abarth to improve its standard versions at least with better factory options. The combination that I find most compelling, as a Latin counterpart to the Anglo-German New Mini, is an Abarth 500 in red with red leather the 'standard' ten spoke 17 inch rims with a Mini-like dual pane glass roof black trim.


My favorite among the current color options



The rear view is more aggressive yet



Red leather and alcantara in high-end sports seats



60's Retro-styled uncluttered dashboard



Anyone who owns one or has driven one, please bring your criticism or praise to the discussion, as this is one of the most serious contenders for our choice as a match to our Minis. Would this be a Marriage made in heaven, with a Mini and an Abarth in every garage, or a mating from Hell where we will come to love one and hate the other? Take that drive and tune in to the mad road race match pitting an Italian Stallion against the British Monarch of small cars.


CB

 

Interesting post. I think the Mini is the better road car by a long shoot heavier, better handling and ride, more power etc. I would think the MINI turbo with more time and testing is more reliable than the fiats. They are not know for build quality or electronics. I love italian cars and was also interested in the Abath version. 160 HP is a bit weak but liveable. I have a
2010 S which I am trading in on a 2011 JCW. I wanted a car I could do track days with nad had better sound, performance and handling over the S. My issue is with the short wheelbase they have a stiff shape ride to them and not much of a good long distance car in my opinion. Sure you can drive it anywhere but is there better choices. Yes many. If you have a city car I think you need a GT car for long road trips and track days etc. Look for more power and longer wheel base and something you do not mind spending 10 hours in. The Mini pounds on our rough American roads. Couple hours of blasting around inthe MINI is great but a trip to Chicago I don't think so.
Maybe you should look for a used sports car. 911, used Caymen or even bigger and fast. I have my Maserati Coupe GT at my GT touring car. Love it. Bought it used and it is agreat bargin. I buddy sold his 02' with 15k on it for 28K US. That is a lot car onad fun for the money. I thnk the cars are too close to eachother and when you go head to head the MINI is the winner.
When you load up a 500 they get spendy pretty fast. look at the Ferrari themed 500. 50K I don't think so.

 

Hi Island Maser,


I didn't even test drive an Abarth before buying my Cooper a couple of weeks ago. What this thread is about isn't whether an Abarth 500 is better than a Mini, but whether it is a better choice for a second car than a Mini.


The reason for this is that in big cities across Europe it is very expensive to garage a car - a spot costing up to double the cost of the car parked in it. Last night I just checked with a local parking lot and they charge $300/month to rent a spot for a larger car. In my current spot I can fit a second Mini or add an Abarth 500 for zero extra storage $ outlay. Buying a $20k Porsche 996 would cost $60k if you count buying its parking spot. So I'm looking for another CITY-SIZED car, a small one like the Abarth 500 SS which Top Gear called "a car the size of a shoe!"






If this is an issue, the Mini Clubman JCW has a longer wheelbase which is possibly better tuned for stability during long drives? So maybe this would be what you'd recommend instead of the Abarth 500 SS? Or should I move later to a JCW Clubman, trading in my Camden, and get the Abarth as a second car? The reason I don't just give up instantly is for the same reason we don't necessarily order steak at a restaurant. Even if you prefer steak sometimes lobster can be nice too. Call it my Surf and Turf garage.



You're right. If the parking didn't cost more than the car I'd ****** up an 8-speed 6.4L Challenger SRT and be King of the Road. But that's not about to happen due to the above. I'll keep a beater I can park on the street for long trips, one with trunk space but not a fun car to drive. No way I'd park anything nice out in the open of the concrete jungle.


Here the Mini doesn't pound, but maybe that's because you have the Run Flats or due to the really bad state of the roads stateside? Here most pavement is very nicely maintained with smooth surfaces and almost never a pothole. What is a problem with the Mini is the large speed bumps which have sprouted up everywhere here. I found the sports seats really comfortable on a 6 hour trip last weekend.



Now that is actually a very helpful comment and is one of my original concerns I don't want to buy an Abarth 500 and wind up always preferring to drive the Cooper, and get my wife mad she's stuck with the Topolino. But by the same token I don't want to start regretting the Justa... Like someone said in another thread: if you don't try a Cooper S you'll never regret your Cooper.



Over here the Abarth 500 SS maxed out is roughly the same list price as my heavily discounted Justa Cooper leftover in-stock from last year, so price isn't an issue versus a more expensive Mini option. That Ferrari edition is strictly a marketing ploy to gain visibility using Fiat's proprietary Ferrari name. You could also bid on one of the 10 Monza edition cars built for possibly as much money, roughly twice the price of an Abarth 500 SS.


Fenice Milano & Romeo Ferraris Abarth 500 Monza edition


I didn't get the Cooper S version due to reliability issues (water pump anyone?), and also because I got seduced by the Camden which was the last one left in the country. I was wondering if turbo Mini reliability had been addressed in the 2011 model engines which Mini France says are now built entirely by BMW and no longer by Peugeot?


So I much appreciate your comments and suggestions and will definitely keep them under the thinking cap before evaluating that cupcake racer. Even if it isn't as nice, I do however wonder if it isn't positive that its spirit is different, and that it puts hard core sensations first even if at the cost of being a less balanced all around sports car?


CB

 

I agree with a car having a spirit or a soul. To me that is key to connecting with a car. The same reason I wouldl also be interested in the Abath or an Alfa if I could get new one here. One reason I also love my Maserati. It is more of a love affair. Our current MINI I llike but it needed a few more things including an exhaust. Reliability in any vehicle is key. Leave me by the side of the road a few times and your days are numbered. I will wait a few years and see how the 500's do here. I would like a higher end sport model just because they would be new and different. Seeing MINI's everywhere now here too.
I could never park I car I loved on the street. Paris seems pretty brutal on cars. I did see lots of Maserati's. I have to have a big garage. Current is 1100 Sqft and truck and Jetta are outside. 30ft offshore boat is taking up to much space and needs to go.

 

Without a doubt I would get the Abarth instead of a second MINI... Love 'em...

 

It's going to come down to a test drive I think.

 

The Abarth SS sounds fine to me. What's there not to like about a small car with some spirit that screeches around corners? Epic fun.

 

There is a long history between the Abarth and the MINI, it's a rivalry I'm happy to see rejuvenated, on the showroom and the track.

Attended a holiday drive and dinner with the local MINI club tonight, and conversation touched on this a little bit tonight; in pertaining to multiple MINI families. There's a lot of difference to be had across the MINI line, and it's been that way long before the Countryman and Clubman made their appearance. And I'm not just talking about color and graphic options, but that a Cabrio MC is a world of difference apart from a hardtop JCW MCS, and there are many many combinations in between; factor in what is out there in the aftermarket world and you can make that departure even more pronounced. If you go between generations or factor in the Clubman and Countryman and now the ability to drive something that "feels different" yet is still "uniquely MINI" grows even more.

There are a few Fiat 500 owners around here, and the 500 has been a topic of discussion many times, plug a few keywords into the search feature here on NAM and you'll get loads of opinions, and the usernames of several Fiat owners. And you'll also see a lot of hype and excitement; there's far more people out there excited at the thought of the 500 than there are realistic buyers of the 500, IMO. That's not to say they won't sell, but right now it's new and interest is naturally high.

You can put the two cars side by side and compare numbers all day long; what it boils down to for me is the MINI IMO looks better, and is more recognizable and the space it does have is more usable. I've seen them side by side, I'm yet to be fortunate enough to find a 500 that I can take for a test drive yet. If you're considering it, also look into the practicality, MINI is expanding dealers and that means easier service appointments. There's also a larger more established base of MINI owners that have come across most issues already, and have more parts available to the larger customer base, and have more owner brains that have worked on the car to help with troubleshooting, diagnosis, installs and innovations.

If you're not in a real hurry, there is something that I am much more excited to get to know more about, and that's the development of the R58/R59 project. My R53 is at 138+k; I'm very interested in seeing my first R58 in person. It's going to expand the MINI in the direction that got me reeled in as an enthusiast in the first place, a small light well balanced car with a little bit of character and a lot of kick to it. I'm expecting the R58 to be a car that is going to adapt very naturally into pushing the envelope with tuning and handling, and I'm expecting it to revive a lot of the same core enthusiast spirit that was so prevalent with the 1st Gen MINIs.



Stay with MINI or depart to something completely different, is really only a choice you can make, either way you're probably going to have a lot of fun, but I tend to see more s on MINI drivers faces.

(Sorry my response was so short, I had firefox crash mid post my first time around)

 

Hi Island Maser,


You're quite right that people have caught on to that one. It is something we can also indulge in more readily today as there are teams working hard to bring distinctive character to a car market in crisis, and industrial advances plus robotics have made cars less subject to breakdowns. So now it isn't as crazy as it used to be to drive something "different".


I think a Maserati has just about the right balance between luxury and road holding that is perfectly suited to American road conditions. You don't need as hard core handling as in tiny European twisters, but you do need more comfort due to US paving being almost reduced to pre-war neglect with pot holes found in unexpected places when not poorly filled due to ageing asphalt. In these parts the Maserati while admired for its aesthetic beauty and finish is soft-edged for the instant demands of local traffic and roadways. You've just started me thinking about one for the States...


Mini has it figured but I wish they offered something more hardcore, if only for the company's image. A ONE road racer for example, to attract entry level buyers with a no-compromise rally ready ride! This might become a cult car, with more moneyed buyers choosing it over the heavily optioned cars. It could be like the "lightweight" series in upscale cars like the Porsche GT3. Only in a cheap thrills version. But BMW has clearly targeted the older sedate gentry with its 'Touring' styled coupe and roadster. Not a purist early Mini solution but one driven by marketing bean counters looking to secure their job by boosting profits more than rebuild a legend. We shouldn't wonder if Mini loses market share to Fiat when their marketing strategy comes down to offering less car for more money.


CB

 

Hi Keyser Soze,


By the way I love your ride in that signature pic !


The Abarth 500 has something which I would compare to a trip to Italy, sipping in an expresso so small you can hardly see it at the bottom of the tiny cup. Only the Italians can be that way, and there are a lot of design and handling choices in the Abarth which are so very Italian that it is much like having a part of Italy in your life. We know they are temperamental and enthusiastic, which this car sure seems to be. We know they prefer looks to practicality and here again we have a bit of that, even if toned down from when it used to be all looks and no practicality to the point of ridicule.


These are similar qualities, although of a different character, to what makes the Mini so special. Most Mini owners don't want to give up their car and drive what boils down to a boring normal car, no matter what the brand. The Mini speaks to you, from the outside with its striking looks to the inside where its original shapes and textures interact with its toy cart handling and fun ambient atmosphere.


That is why I thought that an Abarth might be a good match as a second car for a Mini. While they might from time to time compete for your attention, they are different enough in nature to not really win you away from one another. I think that the ride in the Mini would be more cushy, soft yet unyielding when needed. The Abarth which I have yet to test drive reportedly has a harsher bumpy ride with more body roll due to its higher center of gravity. While this can seem to be a flaw, it also sounds like it would increase cornering sensations meaning that you wind up loving the car for its faults, a shortcoming becoming endearing.


So we'd love the Mini because it is as near to perfect as it gets, while the Abarth's imperfections highlight where it does shines brightly, in the wheel jarring feel of the road and the instant feedback of your every move and effort. It sounds like a sports car that can double as a 4 passenger city car and take you on an occasional trip, while the Mini is more of a perfectly designed all purpose car, stable on the highway, nimble in the city and which offers great sports handling to boot.


For a one car owner, unless you're a single enthusiast, I'd expect that the Mini is the only offering out there to provide it all in one single package. So I can't have any regrets about my recent first Mini purchase. But as a second car, granted your first is a Mini, then just maybe the Abarth is the ticket if you want a raucous rumbling hard core miniature racer that can also get you across town at night swiftly and safely?


The kind of city driving the Abarth was designed for

 

Hi Third Rail,


That's pretty much what will be the clincher, but over here test drives are not part of the usual way of buying a car. For example, buying my Mini not from some small dealer but from the actual showroom of Mini France headquarters I had to pick between a 95hp One and a 120hp Countryman, neither being the same as a Justa Cooper. I'd wager that were I wanting to buy a JCW the best shot they'd have been able to muster up may have been a Cooper S?


What I plan to do is first see if I can test drive a Fiat 500 which should be a lot easier to do. Then once I have a point of comparison and also know where the switches and toggles are, then it will be a matter of finding some way to ride in an Abarth, whether or not they let me at the wheel. It would probably take going all the way through financing approval first, but who knows, soon we'll find out. I'll keep you posted about what I find out. But it will take buying an Abarth 500 EsseEsse and taking a drive to Milano to get it fitted with exhaust and a remapping to get this result:





CB

 

Hi MCS fan,


It does sound like fun. What clinched the deal for the Mini was its safety rating and build quality making it a smart choice given my son will soon be driving it too. Here's what's got me a tad worried about the Abarth, and at low speed too.





In real life situations I'm not sure how the lighter Abarth would fare when things get rough. Especially as it is a car that prompts you to find its limits more than the Mini. The higher center of gravity has its drawbacks when you take it to the edge, although it is likely that the race versions have the very useful electronic traction control safety feature disconnected.





They are relatively unstable under lateral G-force because it they are built on a Fiat Panda platform - in case you never noticed the newer Pandas ride quite high. The rounded shape of the 500 series masks this visually but nonetheless it isn't nearly as close to the ground or as balanced as a Mini. Could this by why the Assetto Corso race prepped series comes with a full roll cage?





The harsher race prepped Abarth series cars are definitely punchy but seem more quirky and less stable than a Mini.





For amusement here's a replay of a game simulation pitting an Abarth 500 against a Mini among other contenders, and it seems as though the game designers got down the handling and performance characteristics pretty well. It is set on Italian roads where weight is more important than horsepower.





I think it can be said that they are maybe a scarier car to drive and therefore bring more thrills than a Mini, especially since the Gen II has isolated much of the road feel through too mushy a steering box. Also they obviously require more driving talent under speed than a Mini, which makes them more rewarding that a better balanced car because it is a challenge to master their quirks, and once you master the flaws you get a sense that you are a SPORTS driver.


From the above I think I'd want to look into whether you can install a proper roll bar and still retain the rear seating, because I like to drive swiftly and don't exactly enjoy unplanned road exits or testing gravity.


CB

 

Hi Motor On,


You're so right that at last we've got some fun to drive cars battling it out. Unluckily each is fighting away on its own turf, organizing brand specific trophies which are maybe nice to sort out who is the best driver but which don't bring much visual excitement or unexpected differences in driving strategy as when you pit several makes of cars against one another.



It is amazing how a bit of culture goes a long way in expressing many different things. This is how the Mini can mean something entirely different to a multitude of owners. It has the ability to incarnate quite a few values which will be brought forth or fall back into the background depending on any number of options and features you design into your own personalized Mini. There is no Mini, there are Minis. And one of them can leave you cold as stone while another one awakens you in unsuspected ways. That's how I landed in my Camden, I had never wanted a Camden before until I came across this one fitted in a special way that spoke out.



Over here there are many Fiat 500 owners and also quite a number of Abarth 500 owners who compare notes and get their beefs online. The only severe criticism is from an owner who bought his Abarth 500 a year ago and says "don't buy one, spend your money on a 300hp real sports car". I think he didn't get what this Abarth was > a tiny Italian city car tricked out to go like hell on wheels with all the risks and inconveniences that come with that. It isn't a true balanced sports car, but an incredible and wild - almost insane extrapolation of a minimalist pram way beyond its technical limits and close to the danger level. Not to be placed in any hands, and maybe not recommended for a teenage driver.



The Abarth 500 is about 3" shorter than a Mini hatch, and I have yet to ascertain if it has less room, this seems hardly possible given the total absence of luggage space in the Mini. Mind you we're a family of four plus dog. I will agree that the Mini community also is a VERY BIG reason to stick with Mini because there's an established support network as well as lots of workarounds and fixes for whatever is at issue.


What does make me gasp is when I see an Abarth 500 parked in the street and notice the growl of desire leaping forth. It really does have something, moving beyond the cute looks of the 500 Fiat and taking it outside into road rage envy territory. It looks like it means business, and apparently it does. You can tell just by its demeanor that this is one bundle you need to be a very special driver to handle.



This could be true and make me eat my hat. But I am not enthused by what I see as too comfort wrapped a high-end "Image Car" which flatters the ego while bringing stylish touring to the wealthier set. This isn't at all what the original Mini was about. It is BMW values applied to the Mini package. Actually, they might do well to re-badge this model in Blue and White?


In the sixties Mini was a small car for those on a small budget. Today with a vanishing middle class instead of sticking with that market BMW has moved the Mini upmarket, beyond the reach of most. In so doing it has lost some of what composed its original formula: "How to fit a family of four into as small and therefore as cheap a car as possible?" Now don't get me wrong. BMW vastly improved the build quality, road performance and ride comfort of the Mini. But where it has lost is in the 'bang-for-the-buck' fun factor. It is a rich person's car beyond the reach of those reduced to soulless rolling crates without spark or only too happy to gain frugal access to Fiat's latest market offerings, combining character and charm with rational cost of ownership.


Yet despite the arrival of direct competition from Fiat, BMW is relying upon the Mini mystique and styling to retain market share, and moving further upmarket with the marketing of prestige and exclusivity. This never was anything to do with a Mini. The original John Cooper Works were harsh and uncompromising cars that were difficult to extract the best from. It is a shame that a Fiat built Abarth 500 would be closer to that experience than Mini's own JCW. Has Mini lost its soul to the ideals of Germanic automobile supremacy?


Mini has a better platform to build a veritable budget road racer doubling as a daily driver and family car. This is what they missed out on with the Mini One, which is only a way of biding your time owning a Mini until you can afford a better one. It wouldn't have cost them more to offer instead of the One a tweaked sports Mini with lighter weight components and an uncompromising ride. But that would have cannibalized its sales of the cushier upscale cars from the Cooper to the JCW.


Making more money is Mini's main game, and we'll get whatever car is likely to do that for them. Shame that it will come at the cost of growing market erosion from other car makers like Fiat which haven't forgotten that we are not all rich, or ready to get into even deeper debt just to not be left on the roadside.


CB

 

Lots of interesting ideas CB and, although I only quoted one, I do tend to agree very much with your perspective.

 

Hi Go Kart Ride,


While it was sort of a rant, for which I apologize, BMW did have it coming because whenever you leverage established values, with a presence in automotive history and power over our memories and expectations, you open yourself up to being compared with the original.


Fiat is remarkable in this respect, not so much with its Fiat 500 or Abarth models, but for the way in which it masterfully captured the original spirit of the car makes which it absorbed and took over production for. Alfa romeo is every bit as Alfa as before, Maserati has resurrected and even if less technologically focused it still delivers a car of character which owners of the originals designed by the brothers would recognize. Where they excelled isn't with Lancia which inherited the luxury midrange segment, but with Ferrari.


Everyone thought that upon Enzo Ferrari's death Ferrari would cease to be. The greatest worries were that another automaker would use its name for marketing purposes in selling cars which had nothing to do with the spirit of Ferrari. Today these fears have been all but appeased. Were Enzo to resurrect and visit his factory he might be bothered by some of the automation but would recognize that his key values were never compromised. A Ferrari still is a Ferrari.


By the same token Fiat has apparently chosen to resurrect the Abarth name keeping in mind the hard core raucous spirit of its founder by providing brutal versions of its production Fiats. This brutality was characteristic of Abarths, only abetted by the size limits of the powerplants he worked on. This is why cranking out oodles of hp and temperamental handling from a 1.4 liter car is right in line with that venture. We will note that the Abarth 500 despite its market positioning uses a 'variable geometry' turbocharger which brings high-end engineering from Fiat's prestigious makes (read Ferrari?) to a cheap to buy and fun to drive entry level car.


Here is where the Germans have missed the boat, too encapsulated they are in the protective bubble of a domestic economy relatively unscathed by the current global crisis. They are still in the paradigm where they believe that the markets can only shift upwards, also imagining that more is more. But there is a lot to be said for the absence of features which are not always better in abundance. Some cars are nicer because they DON'T have some of the features other cars have. For example I love my Cooper's handling while hating the all wheel drive cornering of a 993 twin turbo - that's a car that drives you. A traditional Morgan is backlogged with years of waiting time for delivery of a handcrafted car which lack most of what makes up modern vehicles. And that's what makes it GREAT.


The problem isn't because they are German and the Mini is British. It is because it is run by engineers, who are distorted by their professional preoccupations blinding them to virtues of purity, such as those found in the early 911s or Auto Union racers. It isn't because we can do more today that we must. Better performance doesn't always translate into an enthralling experience, higher numbers aren't equivalent to greater pleasure and being everything to everyone comes at the cost of losing the creative choice of intent - what the car might be given half a chance.


What BMW has succeeded in doing it has apparently done despite the brand owning the company, by the efforts of talented folks working there and fighting long and hard for everything worthwhile in these cars. That is something much harder to do in a large corporate empire than at a small builder, and they should be commended. Even the option of the color Hot Chocolate which is so very appealing came at the cost of a tough battle where folks had to put their necks on the line. And this is despite Mini buyers for the most part being confronted with frustrating limits of drab colors. Are they reserving the nice colors to relaunch sales once they slump?!?


What a crap selection of colours!


So let's not get too hopeful that anything is going to change the mentalities behind future Mini choices, today's Countryman's abuse of the original Clubman's real name, and this strictly for marketing purposes without reverence for the Austin Mini brand nor input of any imagination by selecting of a new name - when the entire vocabulary of over half a million words is available... is telling. Is it because all they speak is German?


We are assailed with gadgets which make our latest washing machines seem simple to operate, but the basic features are barren enough to lack charm. This is unlike the basics of the Fiat 500s which might be cheap and sparing but which nonetheless don't forget to provide sensual pleasure for a modest outlay, respecting you as a client even if you aren't able to afford "the works". But Mini today has engineered everything down to our buying experience. It has been designed to extract everything our wallet might contain and then more. Getting it to have charm while staying in the lower price range is an uphill battle with Mini not helping with its draconian choices, and tying certain features to given models. BMW has taken engineering too far, so far as to engineer its buyer's behavior. So yes, there is such a thing as too engineered a car. It is called a Mini.


CB

 

Brilliant!!!!!!

 

CB, Where are you located? I didn't catch that you were across the pond at first.

In the US the average price of a new car is $29,000; it's no longer a sub $20,000 car with the second generation update, but you can get pretty close to $22,000 and not have to be completely bare bones. Unfortunately, it seems gone is the day of the $7,000 rocket that had some build quality to it, but I think it's even a hard task to find a new $15k Kia now, at least here in the US. While the MINI is not "cheap" it is certainly more attainable than many other cars, the same as it was in the past.

I also separate the Mini racing pedigree from the iconic Mini economy package. While both the Mini and the MINI are both cars that can be right at home in both, I think the R58 is a leaning departure toward the racing and performance world, where the Clubman and Countryman are a lean toward efficient family travel and you can see these parallels, with such depatures across the Mini's history 40years ago. Another thing you also must remember, when the first Mini came out, nobody had done it it was revolutionary, now that the first Mini setup such a platform, by the time the MINI came out, pretty much every car company had an econo box, and to make another front engine front wheel 4 seat hatch back was hardly a new thought, but it was evolutionary to make the 1st Gen MINI was something that managed to bridge the gap between the econo box and a luxury comfort car and a sports car. Making something bare bones wouldn't be worthwhile sales wise because it had already been done over and over.


And something quite applicable here

 

I wish they'd do something about the roof design looks like a bad afterthought.The rest of the design is a winner but roof uuugh

 

I suspect you are right, Drew. In this case, a certain essence (for some of us anyway) of the Mini will be lost in the MINI brand (less so in R50 and R53...more afterward), and we will have to look elsewhere to find a permutation on qualities we seek. That's fine...in the end MINI has to deal with the real-world market as they see it.

 

Well even with the R50 and R53, there was much hate from the classic owners because even then the MINI was developing that luxury hatch market.

As the second generation rolled in there were many (myself included) that felt the R56s were even more a departure from MINI uniqueness, developing into a larger market share more toyota-esque car. While the 1st Gen MINIs enjoyed accolades, there were still regular users on NAM posting that the MINI was too small for them, or now that they were having kids they thought they'd need something bigger (many enthusiasts disproved that). Lotus suffered from a more severe case of the same affliction, and the used market was flooded with 3 day old Elises that people quickly realized would not serve them as daily drivers. MINI took these complaints and made changes that made the car more "normal"; remove the special high octane fuel requirement, set the oil change intervals to last even longer (despite reports to me from many mechanics their biggest issue is engines that had been run dry in some cases or on excessively dirty oil in many others) added some size and adjusted the visual cues to make the car "look bigger" (pay close attention to the belt line on the rear half of the car, they added more cosmetic options so there was more room for custom stickers (ok vinyl). Then hardly a year later, followed up with a much larger 3 door MINI boasting more storage space, more legroom and easier access to child car seats (unless you were in the UK, then you were stuck on the traffic side of the car to get your kids out for school in the morning). Now the Countryman, even bigger four seater to be more of a "family car" And with the whole second generation MINI still really hasn't parted with what since the concept was released has been called the "playschool" center stack. The R56 may be lighter, the R56 may be faster, may have more stock horsepower, but the R53 is more fun, and has more character.

All of those changes to make the car more marketable to the larger demographic, that wouldn't stand for the long list of "quirks" that MINIs carried with them, I'm not sure there's a R50/R53 owner out there that didn't at least have a rattle at some point in their ownership; and other like myself have lists hundreds of parts long that needed replacing and repairing. 2nd gen cars certainly aren't perfect for reliability, but there was a vast improvement with many redesigns, and working on the R56 I find myself removing 6 times more plastic to do same and similar functions, so that the parts fit tighter and make less noise.

More marketable car, more dealers, more owners, larger community, change in tone on much of the website (while it's not recommended, we're no longer shunning those spending less than 12 hours a week (6 hours, at least two times) washing their MINIs. Many people get upset that NAM has changed, when really NAM hasn't, but now a MINI is an accepted car in many more parts of the country, and the larger community carries a different tone than the small tight knit group. It used to be that in major markets like NY or LA or Chicago you'd be the only MINI someone would see in a week or even a month, and if you stopped at a gas station next to a Ferrari, more people would be seeking you out to ask questions about the MINI than they would the Ferrari, and you'd have a larger crowd too. That's no longer the case and in my experience hasn't been for about 2.5 years now. I haven't gotten a wave in months, and again it's symptomatic of the culture shift stemming from culture growth that's lead to a change in the non-enthusiast MINI owner.

I'm not saying I like the changes they've made, or the change that it's brought about in the tone of the community; there is much I find missing from that, but I can also understand the financial reasons of MINI making the changes that they have, and in my position here on NAM everyday I can see the rebooting of enthusiasm from long time owners as well as the new people that MINI has managed to open themselves up to.

With the R58 still in it's infancy I'm hoping to see movement toward more tight handling, more powerful engine, lighter smaller packaged car; something that becomes pure unadulterated fun to drive. Something that makes the size leap you got going from a normal car to a MINI, but instead the R56 to the R58. Something also worth noting is taking a look at the concept drawings of the new MINI (from the early 2000s) and when the contracts kept passing the car around, and where the R50 and R53 ended up, and then compare them to the R56...some of the changes also became more tied to what the car was originally concepted to be. If you're a fan of the series Top Gear and watched it closely since 2003, you'll realize there is a point where they became characturchers of themselves and so began the new era of "innocence lost" where they'd realized their own success and couldn't make the genuine feel of the show again (they've got close but it's still not what it once was). The speedo got even bigger in the R56 to match the concept drawings that played off of the original uniqueness of the Mini. The New MINI is a characturcher of the original Mini; again as I said earlier, it's an evolution not a revolution. And you'll find the very same thing when it comes to the Abarth, the new one is a far cry from what the original Abarth was, it instead something created in the spirit of the original.

I've driven Minis from the 70s, MINIs from the 1st gen, MINIs from the 2nd gen...I know what a MINI can be, and that's what everything else goes up against in a test drive. Little has lived up to where the bar has been set, and until I drive it, I can't say whether or not the Abarth is going to be able to live up to that first setting of the bar, let alone make that leap that I'm hoping MINI will realize to make. And my enthusiasm for the R58 isn't that it will be able to match that, but so far as of yet, it seems to have a better chance than most of what's on the market of just doing that.

It seems that CB is here looking for a car that's going to give him that leap of fun, and that gulp of all that fun that MINIs can be but many aren't. And as a second car, it may be that having a classic, an original of either car...might just be what the doctor order in that fun second car.

 

Hi Drew,


You'll will recognize my location at a glance in my gallery...



Yes Drew, but let's remember that you are lumping together with that average price all cars sold from performance muscle cars to dually wheeled trucks to SUVs and luxury sedans. It isn't exactly a price performance for a pint sized subcompact to be priced right in the middle of the pack against much bigger and more costly to build vehicles.



You quite correctly have to separate the Mini racers of the classic era from the run of the mill city cars. Racers used the Mini as a lightweight basis to get a budget level (racing budget, mind you) entry car with a possible ticket to a rally victory. Also back then roads were poorly paved and the competition in those races were way overweight bulbous cars designed in the fifties with obsolescent engineering, the Jaguar sedans making their place in the sun by having the first disc brakes enabling them to out accelerate others because they could still slow down to take the curves.


So the very reason there ever was a racing heritage of the Austin Mini was that they excelled was as bare bones lightweight competitor that benefited from improvised custom suspension tuning - some of them sitting on rubber cones in guise of suspension... and slightly boosting the 1.275L engine. Having owned and driven four years an Austin with a glorious whopping 73 horsepower engine - its most evolved factory offering - as a daily driver.


I found it interesting that I had to spy for cloud cover to verify whether the car might start or not due to ambient humidity short circuiting the ignition. When the car still had low miles it was fun to have the accelerator cable snap on a Sunday drive down the highway. However you could fix these yourself, and in this case all it took was taking the shortened broken cable and attaching it to the closer choke button at the bottom of the dashboard. It was an exciting drive, pushing in the button to before shifting, and pulling it out to accelerate the car. I drove that way for close to a week until the Austin dealer could get me a new proper length cable. So you needn't convince me that the current Mini is an improved car.



You are quite right. The original concept of the Gen I modern Mini is a great synthesis of luxury, small size and sportiness. The new Mini is a jolly good car, which nobody can deny... So nobody is knocking the Mini here, as far as I can tell, but simply wondering if the Mini is so good that it can only be matched with another Mini as a second car, or if it makes more sense and provides other things to have a different second car which is not a Mini.


My situation is useful for comparison purposes, because A - I need a second car, and B - it must be no longer than a Mini hatch. This is due to particular parking constraints in a very congested and expensive location. Yet this is possibly also a factor for other potential 'second Mini' buyers. And it is mostly the presence of a very challenging competitive offering in the form of the Abarth 500 Esse Esse that this question has arisen, because I was last week at my local Mini dealership test driving Minis as a potential second car.


This variant on the Fiat 500 platform is interesting because it has renewed the Abarth brand with more respect for the original than Mini granted to the JCW which is less hardcore than the Cooper brothers' preparations. The Abarth cars seem to take the spirit of uncompromising performance a lot farther, with race prepped versions outperforming even a tuned JCW using a smaller engine and a lighter car. And this is starting with a far less promising platform, that of a lowly Fiat Panda chassis when Mini had a BMW engineered rock solid basis to work with.


So my conclusion is that while the Mini is the better car and all around choice as a first small vehicle, there are indeed some veritable desirable features in the adventurous spirit of the Italians which the level-headed calculating Germans care little for. They will just build a bigger tank for others to drive circles around.


CB

 

Hi Motor On,


While that may be true, what was the reason? Was it because there was the addition of luxury, or because this luxury came at the expense of purity?


Sure, there will always be the die hard purist who find solace in proving their dedication by sacrificing their posterior comfort - I am not one of them. But there are countless others who prized the feel of the original Mini which is something which Fiat retained far better in the new 500 with its simple metal dash and uncluttered styling going to the essential.


A good test of this difference is to see whether the new 500 has gotten what you called HATE from former Fiat 500 Topolino owners. If at all it would certainly not be as adamant given that the spirit was retained more faithfully.


Is this better? Maybe, maybe not. BMW did bring luxury sporting to the Mini. This has inadvertently made a lot of converts which Fiat might benefit from. For thanks to that subterfuge, by offering in a diminutive package all the creature comforts and accessories automotive fashion victims have been peddled for years, Mini has brought crowds of mundane drivers to discover the joys of motoring, only to awaken them to their own shortcomings and ultimate compromise of this newly instilled yearning by softening the steering and insulating us from road feel.


Where has the true grit gone? Do you really need to pile on the horsepower and torque to get sensations in a Mini? NO. What the Mini needs is a lot more driving sensation, not to say there is none, not by a long shot. But there are bound to be countless Mini owners who today tweak their cars for better get up and go or for more grip in cornering, because they are seeking what BMW engineered out of our cars: a sense of being there, at one with the car, at one with the road, soaring in mind and at the same time through space thanks to the magic of automotive engineering.


This isn't a utopia, and Audi was able to engineer this exact feeling into the Lamborghini Gallardo. What's so great about that car isn't its instant torque which lets you drive around in 5th gear if you're too lazy to shift, but the impression that you needn't do more than think of where you'd like to be than the car gets there 'telepathically'. Sure that is a way too expensive a supercar to be compared to our dinky toys. But it isn't so, just think back at that Top Gear video where the host stated: "I want to be a Lamborghini, look... I am a Lamborghini" message coming from the Abarth 500 Esse Esse he was driving.


This is not about every car being a Lambo. Nor about the Italians having it over the Germans. It is about BMW having missed the boat when it comes ot the potential which can be brought out of a small car. That they made it rock solid is a plus. But that's not what it's all about. Small cars offer something that no larger car can offer without pushing the engineering and cost factor way up. That is budget driving pleasure second to none. This is why Schumacher still likes to race Go karts. And he's had it all. BMW is in a royal position where for next to no cost they could offer a budget priced Abarth killer. But do they want to? NO. Because everyone would say, why buy an over weight BMW when you can own a true Sports Mini?


Just my humble opinion.



Thanks for this summary of Mini's evolution since the new models appeared. I am especially sensitive to what you say about the R53 being a more fun car. There is actually no reason for this, other than that Mini was willing to sacrifice part of the fun. With competition from the Italians and possibly other car makers finally understanding that you have to deliver 'experience value' to customers to win them when they already have rational and reliable transportation, Mini will have to come around sooner or later. Given the arrogance of a dominant market position in the segment, apparently nobody is going to wet their shirt at Mini and take the risk of going against the BMW groupthink which the Germans have been know to live by.



Now that is quite an unexpected vote of confidence on the part of a motoring enthusiast, much less one of a classic re-edition automobile, joyful for the gobs of plastic for their sound deadening performance. Yet many plastics resonate, and worse yet, age poorly potentially preventing most of today's cars from ever becoming durable classics which can be restored and collected. This is part of the 'comfort' of owning a disposable car with a single vocation: being one day usefully recycled. I guess it doesn't matter if in the process you take much of the fun out of the ride.



You know, you just said it. The Mini has not only changed who buys it and the way it is considered by owners, but also this mainstream softness and blatant reverence to establishment values such as luxury segment priced endless option lists like in Porsche or other high end dealerships has shown the Gen II Mini to be what it is: A BMW. It has lost more yet of the British quirkiness and from what you and others here say some of the seat of the pants driving pleasure. Sure it is better at road holding. But then again I'm sure you can find a Lexus that also is.


What is amazing is that you made a statement which brings evidence that BMW is in the process of killing off the Mini Myth it resurrected, by making the brand less and less of a Mini. They may make more money in so doing, but in the long term they will have sold out the brand and lowered their brand equity which translates invariably into less 'Goodwill' stock valuation impacting their net worth. Leave it to engineers to run a company and determine the destiny of a brand...



Well, BMW has probably decided that the Mini should fill a gap until we are all driving electrical Minis. They are testing them right now in France for future sale maybe as soon as next year. Yes, we're going to go sustainable development so make sure you economize on tires because all that is petrol based. Definitely the right move for an enthusiast vehicle. There is clearly a wish to use BMW mindsets to guide the future of the brand, and it seems that Mini is set to become a 100% German car. I say, if you want a German car, buy a good one. One that is a no compromise German car. Make mine a GT3.



There are plenty of road hugging 2-seater roadsters out there. What the Mini has over any of them is that it provides seating for a family of four. This car is entering another segment, just like the new misnamed Countryman crossover. While it wears a Mini Badge it is no more of a Mini than a Cygnet is an Aston Martin.






What we can agree upon here is that car designs evolve. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. But that is by no means because it is a necessity to make them evolve. At least not until the connection with the market has been all but lost.



So you're hoping to bond with the R58 because you realize what that the R56 has failed to deliver?



Were we still in the sixties I'd venture yes. However there are today ten times more cars on the road in France and here people drive a good bit faster than in the States leaving precious little safety margin. With two teenagers who will be taking turns driving the two cars when I'm not using them that is more of a risk than I am willing to take, even if in the name of maximum fun.


So enough of my rant, I will probably go out and add an Abarth 500 SS to the stable. But it isn't because I think it is a better car. It is because Mini has missed the boat in failing to offer, alongside its bare bones One, a Sports One, a lightened car to match a remapped and more go but especially a car that has more steering feel, lower springs, a real entry level sports package where a teenager can learn to drive by having fun and not necessarily going too fast to get the impression that something is going on.


CB

 

Just as an update, the main dealership in the country just called me to book an appointment. We'll be checking out and probably test driving a few cars. They'll range from the various gasoline Fiat 500s including the ragtop to the notorious Abarth 500 EsseEsse hopefully in one of their special series. Here's the one they had a tiny batch made up just for them last year.





The model we'll be looking at can be ordered with a special exhaust which has a spring loaded bypass pipe. That is why there are two sets of dual tailpipes at the rear: the ones which go through the main center muffler and those which don't. This fellow removed the spring loaded mechanism inside his to keep it open all the time. And he strapped a camera to his rear bumper - go figure those Italians. It does make it sound a little more sporting, and he says it helps it feel quicker, whether it is by the power of suggestion from the sporting noise or not he cannot tell.





I sort of hope that I will have the opposite reaction to the Minis. I started out dead set on a Cooper S and toying with the idea of a John Cooper Works but got swayed by a Justa Cooper, which I don't regret for a second because I think it is a very balanced car with the right mix of sports and practicality as well as a more reasonable basis for tweaks which suit my driving environment.


So we'll be checking out the regular plain Vanilla Fiat 500s to better figure out what is won and what is lost by going to the sportier models up to the ultimate offered today, the Abarth 500 EsseEsse with the Magnetti Marelli dual exhaust, H&R springs, Koni shocks and Brembo brakes. I think that the fact we 'settled' for the Cooper is going to have me covered in terms of rational purchases, making it less crazy to go for the more temperamental Italian offering?


I'll keep you posted and will try to take some pictures so that you can get a feel for what is currently being offered in Europe and which should in at least similar form reach your shores before soon. The dealership network will be different and the factory will be the automated one I posted a video of above. So some things won't be the same. Some might be better and others could be less appealing, time will tell, the ball is in Fiat's court.


Hopefully it will also serve to wake up BMW that at least some Mini owners are collectively investigating the competition. And this not out of scorn or to knock the brand we love, but because we seek something which they've missed. A far more PURE car than has been brewed in Munich.


BMW owns Rolls Royce and a year ago there were even rumors of a Mini Rolls edition in a genuine Royal Blue Rolls Royce color fitted with Connelly leather. Fiat owns Ferrari and didn't fail to build and sell a Ferrari Abarth 500 edition. So maybe we shouldn't be surprised that BMW isn't meeting the competition head on. We could very well be in presence of a market segment OLIGOPOLY which NAM member Elinara posted about earlier.



Maybe a bit of a scurry here in this widely read forum serving their largest market will help BMW get on their toes to meet the challenge and take this opportunity to prove their worth in the no-frills hardcore subcompact road racing category. Otherwise, maybe BMW should just DELEGATE this task to MINI and its BRITISH staff who may know a thing or two more about what makes up a true British Sports Car than than they know about Rapp Motorenwerke. If not, we are free to suspect either more interest in our wallets than in our market's demand, or possibly even a tacit agreement with Fiat to not step on each other's toes? Except that would of course be in direct violation of U.S. Antitrust legislation.


BMW WELT in Munich



Does that remind you of anything?



Munchen may have bowed down to Maranello, unable to match their brio. But now they will concede victory to Torino? Sure, it has been a long time since BMW sought new heights - Sixty some years now since they designed and built the engines for Hitler's Vril and Thule Haunebu series. Is BMW engineering too spaced out or are they simply 'out of this world'... meaning still building them in Antarctica?





CB

 

I had one and it got over 50mpg and would do about 70mph tops. It was a two cylinder manual.

I was 16 years old and the year was 1959. The sticker on the car was $495.00 brand spanking new.







********************************Yep, my 1959 Fait 500 convertable*************************************** **************

 

Hi Ronnie,


Saw your post about it before but thought you were in Italy, I had no idea that they were sold outside the continent back then. You had some courage to drive that around the huge 40's and 50's cars on the roads back then.


I'm checking the new ones out with the family soon, so I'll have news. I did know yours, my brother had one in France he bought in the 70's for 50 francs which is about $10, you can be sure it wasn't very fresh. They were quite the envied ride in Italian villages, some of which counted only one triporter and a couple of mopeds, usually the guy with a three-wheeler got elected mayor in exchange for helping others with heavy stuff to haul.


So the references are all wrong when we judge these cars by today's standards. Sure they're small. I was once in Italy driving up a narrow mountain gorge to find myself faced with three Fiat 500s passing one another at the same time. They were three abreast and flashing their headlights. I slowed as I might and closed my eyes while these nimble cars by some miracle managed to get past me brushing my chrome bumpered vintage Mercedes by a hair.


They weren't printing money like they are today so few had much to buy fancy cars which were quite rare in comparison. That's the reason many such cars appeared, to make the dream of autonomous travel come true for more folks. Price democracy meant being able to go places as you wish back then, unlike voting today, which somehow keeps us stuck in the same place. Nobody minded getting stuffed into a teeny car, it was great just getting a ride and not being left to trudge along on foot or wear yourself down pedaling a bicycle.


We're pretty spoiled nowadays, look at me, moaning about Mini's not being lean and mean. We're in luxury heaven in our Ones, Coopers and turbos. Sure things could be different, and we can help make them so. Yesterday I was walking under the elevated Subway and beneath it a black classic Mini was parked there, in its dark shade looking so tiny I almost tripped over it. Man have we come a long way. These were great cars in their time, and are still fun to drive and own. But few back then would have not jumped at the chance to so much as take a short spin in one of ours.


The Fiat 500 is also a very nice ride. While it has a weaker basis for raw performance, it just might be that the factory is tweaking the Abarth version further than Mini wants to bother, because they've taken the sports roadracer bias instead of the subcompact luxury approach. Unless the next JCW is a lightened smaller wheeled pavement grinder with a raucous roar and some wild sensations beyond pumping up the revs, then we'll have to concede that at least Abarth has offered us a real contender for those who are hard core about driving more than dedicated to being 'cool'.


Thanks for sharing the memories and pictures.


CB