A second MINI or an Abarth 500 ?!?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,390
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From: Daytona Beach, Florida
Hi CB
I lived in Wilmington Delaware when I bought that Fiat 500. A rich guy gave me $500.00 not to see or speak to his daughter. I was 16 and went to a dealer called Hollywood Perkins to trade my tired old 1947 Dodge my dad gave me on a used car in better condition then my Dodge. I saw this brand new Fiat on the showroom floor and bought it.
I kept it until 1960 and bought this:
It is was a brand new English Ford Anglia.
I first got into racing with this car. Jorge DePirro prepared the engine and put in a roll bar, Re-did some suspension parts and I used this car to get My SCCA license. I only did armature racing but it was competitive and a lot of fun & cheap to run. Langhorne PA. Trenton & Vineland NJ and Reading PA. Plus a lot of what they called Gymkhanas in those days (Auto Cross) now a days.
I never could afford to go professional. I belonged to the Brandywine Motor Sports Club. All of the amature racing back then was club connected. I joined the Army and could only run when I was home on a weekend or on leave so I sold that car to a fellow club member and bought a 1962 Fairlane 500 and my racing days were over for a long time.
I now have this:
************2009 Factory JCW ******** and I really love it a lot.
******I have done some "HOT LAPS at Daytona and this car is just the way I bought it ( Factory Stock) and is quick and handles great. ( even with the runflats) I now have Michelin Exalta PE2's 215/45/17 on it and the speedway is finished with the resurfacing so I'm hoping my Club will rent the track again. I may or may not run it again but I'm sure thinking hard on doing it. It is usually $400.00 a day to run so that could be a problem. Not that it is not worth it. It's just I don't have it.
I'm 67 now and had a bunch of cars, Corvettes , Mustangs, Harley Davidson Motorcycles along with a couple of vans and pick-up trucks and I'm willing to say that this Mini Cooper is the most fun to drive car I have ever had. About the only thing I would give it up for is if Mini came out with a WRC high performance Countryman model. I like the four doors and the roll down back seat windows for my dog to stick his head out. I guess I'm getting old.
I kept it until 1960 and bought this:
It is was a brand new English Ford Anglia.
I first got into racing with this car. Jorge DePirro prepared the engine and put in a roll bar, Re-did some suspension parts and I used this car to get My SCCA license. I only did armature racing but it was competitive and a lot of fun & cheap to run. Langhorne PA. Trenton & Vineland NJ and Reading PA. Plus a lot of what they called Gymkhanas in those days (Auto Cross) now a days.
I never could afford to go professional. I belonged to the Brandywine Motor Sports Club. All of the amature racing back then was club connected. I joined the Army and could only run when I was home on a weekend or on leave so I sold that car to a fellow club member and bought a 1962 Fairlane 500 and my racing days were over for a long time.
I now have this:
************2009 Factory JCW ******** and I really love it a lot.
******I have done some "HOT LAPS at Daytona and this car is just the way I bought it ( Factory Stock) and is quick and handles great. ( even with the runflats) I now have Michelin Exalta PE2's 215/45/17 on it and the speedway is finished with the resurfacing so I'm hoping my Club will rent the track again. I may or may not run it again but I'm sure thinking hard on doing it. It is usually $400.00 a day to run so that could be a problem. Not that it is not worth it. It's just I don't have it.
I'm 67 now and had a bunch of cars, Corvettes , Mustangs, Harley Davidson Motorcycles along with a couple of vans and pick-up trucks and I'm willing to say that this Mini Cooper is the most fun to drive car I have ever had. About the only thing I would give it up for is if Mini came out with a WRC high performance Countryman model. I like the four doors and the roll down back seat windows for my dog to stick his head out. I guess I'm getting old.
Last edited by ronnie948; Dec 22, 2010 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Add stuff
Ending Abarth Race
Hi MCS fan,
It does sound like fun. What clinched the deal for the Mini was its safety rating and build quality making it a smart choice given my son will soon be driving it too. Here's what's got me a tad worried about the Abarth, and at low speed too.
In real life situations I'm not sure how the lighter Abarth would fare when things get rough. Especially as it is a car that prompts you to find its limits more than the Mini. The higher center of gravity has its drawbacks when you take it to the edge, although it is likely that the race versions have the very useful electronic traction control safety feature disconnected.
They are relatively unstable under lateral G-force because it they are built on a Fiat Panda platform - in case you never noticed the newer Pandas ride quite high. The rounded shape of the 500 series masks this visually but nonetheless it isn't nearly as close to the ground or as balanced as a Mini. Could this by why the Assetto Corso race prepped series comes with a full roll cage?
The harsher race prepped Abarth series cars are definitely punchy but seem more quirky and less stable than a Mini.
For amusement here's a replay of a game simulation pitting an Abarth 500 against a Mini among other contenders, and it seems as though the game designers got down the handling and performance characteristics pretty well. It is set on Italian roads where weight is more important than horsepower.
I think it can be said that they are maybe a scarier car to drive and therefore bring more thrills than a Mini, especially since the Gen II has isolated much of the road feel through too mushy a steering box. Also they obviously require more driving talent under speed than a Mini, which makes them more rewarding that a better balanced car because it is a challenge to master their quirks, and once you master the flaws you get a sense that you are a SPORTS driver.
From the above I think I'd want to look into whether you can install a proper roll bar and still retain the rear seating, because I like to drive swiftly and don't exactly enjoy unplanned road exits or testing gravity.
CB
It does sound like fun. What clinched the deal for the Mini was its safety rating and build quality making it a smart choice given my son will soon be driving it too. Here's what's got me a tad worried about the Abarth, and at low speed too.
In real life situations I'm not sure how the lighter Abarth would fare when things get rough. Especially as it is a car that prompts you to find its limits more than the Mini. The higher center of gravity has its drawbacks when you take it to the edge, although it is likely that the race versions have the very useful electronic traction control safety feature disconnected.
They are relatively unstable under lateral G-force because it they are built on a Fiat Panda platform - in case you never noticed the newer Pandas ride quite high. The rounded shape of the 500 series masks this visually but nonetheless it isn't nearly as close to the ground or as balanced as a Mini. Could this by why the Assetto Corso race prepped series comes with a full roll cage?
The harsher race prepped Abarth series cars are definitely punchy but seem more quirky and less stable than a Mini.
For amusement here's a replay of a game simulation pitting an Abarth 500 against a Mini among other contenders, and it seems as though the game designers got down the handling and performance characteristics pretty well. It is set on Italian roads where weight is more important than horsepower.
I think it can be said that they are maybe a scarier car to drive and therefore bring more thrills than a Mini, especially since the Gen II has isolated much of the road feel through too mushy a steering box. Also they obviously require more driving talent under speed than a Mini, which makes them more rewarding that a better balanced car because it is a challenge to master their quirks, and once you master the flaws you get a sense that you are a SPORTS driver.
From the above I think I'd want to look into whether you can install a proper roll bar and still retain the rear seating, because I like to drive swiftly and don't exactly enjoy unplanned road exits or testing gravity.
CB
Think they announced an abrupt end to the Abarth series race and all of the race cars are now up for sale?
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,233
Likes: 127
From: San Francisco
Link? Google did not turn up anything at all about this.
I think it can be said that they are maybe a scarier car to drive and therefore bring more thrills than a Mini, especially since the Gen II has isolated much of the road feel through too mushy a steering box. Also they obviously require more driving talent under speed than a Mini, which makes them more rewarding that a better balanced car because it is a challenge to master their quirks, and once you master the flaws you get a sense that you are a SPORTS driver.
From the above I think I'd want to look into whether you can install a proper roll bar and still retain the rear seating, because I like to drive swiftly and don't exactly enjoy unplanned road exits or testing gravity. CB
From the above I think I'd want to look into whether you can install a proper roll bar and still retain the rear seating, because I like to drive swiftly and don't exactly enjoy unplanned road exits or testing gravity. CB
. Based on evidence that the 500 is rather tippy, I modify my first conjecture to this:
The Abarth SS sounds fine to me. What's there not to like about a small car with some spirit that screeches around corners and may occasionally tip over? Epic fun.
Growing up on motorcycles, first dirt bikes where I nearly killed myself many times, I then straddled 100HP street bikes after I was old enough to drive on the street (14 in my state). I likely feel more comfortable near the edge than others. The fact that the 500 is a bit tippy still does not make it a bad car. Most American and foreign made SUVs are actually quite easy to tip over. I saw a 4x4 Chevy Suburban that apparently lost control roll down the highway like a dog doing tricks. The aftermath was pretty ugly. This is a common theme with car wrecks in the US, especially where SUVs are involved.
So it sounds like racing the 500 would be quite a trick, however, just toying around town in legal fashion shouldn't be too much of a bore. Now if we really want to know what's it's like to live in a car that spends more time sideways the upside, Jeremy will demonstrate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8
I suggest there is a linear slide between dull but safe and fun but dangerous. Where will you draw that line? Everyone has to answer that question for himself. Now the Reliant Robin to me is ludicrous. I know many people that feel the same way about motorcycles in general. I don't, and I certainly don't feel that way about the Fiat 500. It may be just a bit more "fun but dangerous" than my neo classic R53. I believe this fun factor is something that MINI is going to have to take a long hard look at going forward. Motor Trend magazine (US) just wrote in the November issue that the Nissan Juke is more “fun” than the MINI Countryman. This really should be MINI’s wakeup call.
Last edited by MCSfanboy; Dec 24, 2010 at 10:37 AM.
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2nd Gear
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Fixed ?
Sorry about that. I just reduced the Abarth pictures on the first page to quarter size so that page should work better now. Most discussion boards limit image size to less than here so while we get higher resolution capacity it makes for horizontally stretched threads...
CB
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2nd Gear
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You've got to tell us how to do that, sure would like some rich guy to buy my son a car so I can keep my Justa...
I was 16 and went to a dealer called Hollywood Perkins to trade my tired old 1947 Dodge my dad gave me on a used car in better condition then my Dodge. I saw this brand new Fiat on the showroom floor and bought it.
I kept it until 1960 and bought this:
It is was a brand new English Ford Anglia.
I kept it until 1960 and bought this:
It is was a brand new English Ford Anglia.
I never could afford to go professional. I belonged to the Brandywine Motor Sports Club. All of the amature racing back then was club connected. I joined the Army and could only run when I was home on a weekend or on leave so I sold that car to a fellow club member and bought a 1962 Fairlane 500 and my racing days were over for a long time.
I now have this:
************2009 Factory JCW ******** and I really love it a lot.[/quote]
Your new ride is probably a modern equivalent of your old tuned Anglia. A lot faster but nonetheless possibly less raw feeling near the edge, if you can find it?
******I have done some "HOT LAPS at Daytona and this car is just the way I bought it ( Factory Stock) and is quick and handles great. ( even with the runflats) I now have Michelin Exalta PE2's 215/45/17 on it and the speedway is finished with the resurfacing so I'm hoping my Club will rent the track again. I may or may not run it again but I'm sure thinking hard on doing it. It is usually $400.00 a day to run so that could be a problem. Not that it is not worth it. It's just I don't have it.
I'm 67 now and had a bunch of cars, Corvettes , Mustangs, Harley Davidson Motorcycles along with a couple of vans and pick-up trucks and I'm willing to say that this Mini Cooper is the most fun to drive car I have ever had. About the only thing I would give it up for is if Mini came out with a WRC high performance Countryman model. I like the four doors and the roll down back seat windows for my dog to stick his head out. I guess I'm getting old.
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2nd Gear
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Thanks for the suggestion, it would be tempting, although I would enjoy dispensing with the large roll cage and single seating arrangement in the race prepped car for family fare... they actually enjoy a 'swift' ride when it is done prudently yet screeching fast.
However it seems as though this wasn't quite the case, you will see at this link that there are quite a few series of Abarth races ongoing.
Abarth Racing
If you are on to some kind of interesting deals on the Assetto Corse or the RT3 Rallye, in the USA or Europe, I would rethink for sure given the Cooper already has 4 seats.
Cheers,
CB
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2nd Gear
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Camden: I don't disagree with you about the 500 being scarier to drive than the MINI. This appeals to me. Most of us can't even begin to explore the limit of the MINI's handling unless we install a 5-point harness and drive faster than legal. One reason I bought the R53 was because of its potential to be just a bit dangerous. This is partly what makes it so fun to me. I've made mine louder, more powerful and improved its handling a bit because that's what I'm looking for. I didn't buy the R53 for good gas mileage --but fun. Some people may suggest I'm still in touch with my inner child. I take this as a complement .
.Based on evidence that the 500 is rather tippy, I modify my first conjecture to this:
The Abarth SS sounds fine to me. What's there not to like about a small car with some spirit that screeches around corners and may occasionally tip over? Epic fun.
Growing up on motorcycles, first dirt bikes where I nearly killed myself many times, I then straddled 100HP street bikes after I was old enough to drive on the street (14 in my state). I likely feel more comfortable near the edge than others. The fact that the 500 is a bit tippy still does not make it a bad car. Most American and foreign made SUVs are actually quite easy to tip over. I saw a 4x4 Chevy Suburban that apparently lost control roll down the highway like a dog doing tricks. The aftermath was pretty ugly. This is a common theme with car wrecks in the US, especially where SUVs are involved.
The Abarth SS sounds fine to me. What's there not to like about a small car with some spirit that screeches around corners and may occasionally tip over? Epic fun.
Growing up on motorcycles, first dirt bikes where I nearly killed myself many times, I then straddled 100HP street bikes after I was old enough to drive on the street (14 in my state). I likely feel more comfortable near the edge than others. The fact that the 500 is a bit tippy still does not make it a bad car. Most American and foreign made SUVs are actually quite easy to tip over. I saw a 4x4 Chevy Suburban that apparently lost control roll down the highway like a dog doing tricks. The aftermath was pretty ugly. This is a common theme with car wrecks in the US, especially where SUVs are involved.
So it sounds like racing the 500 would be quite a trick, however, just toying around town in legal fashion shouldn't be too much of a bore. Now if we really want to know what's it's like to live in a car that spends more time sideways the upside, Jeremy will demonstrate:
I suggest there is a linear slide between dull but safe and fun but dangerous. Where will you draw that line? Everyone has to answer that question for himself. Now the Reliant Robin to me is ludicrous.
Also there is something about the raw sounds coming through thinner sheet metal, noticing the pebbles on the pavement through the seats and suspension, feeling the car react to the road instead of imposing its presence like a steamroller, that's what I call exciting. Sure you'll lose seconds in lap time, and probably such a car in these days of over-engineered road gobblers won't have as much grunt and will lack table manners. But isn't it a heck of a lot more fun?
I believe this fun factor is something that MINI is going to have to take a long hard look at going forward. Motor Trend magazine (US) just wrote in the November issue that the Nissan Juke is more “fun” than the MINI Countryman. This really should be MINI’s wakeup call.
With the dopey marketing morons out of the picture, they would awaken to the fact that it isn't all about making the base car bland to force people to spend more. Making cars isn't ONLY about taking people's money. It is about establishing and BUILDING Brand Equity. And apparently Mini's brand equity is something which BMW's marketers are currently pounding into the ground by confronting buyers with "price doubling option lists" or else making them spend their years of ownership wishing you had caved in. And especially failing to deliver "Bang for the Buck" that could strike the public's imagination.
CB
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BMW WELT in Munich
Does that remind you of anything?
Sure, it has been a long time since BMW sought new heights - Sixty some years now since they designed and built the engines for Hitler's Vril and Thule Haunebu series. Is BMW engineering too spaced out or are they simply 'out of this world'... meaning still building them in Antarctica?
Does that remind you of anything?
Sure, it has been a long time since BMW sought new heights - Sixty some years now since they designed and built the engines for Hitler's Vril and Thule Haunebu series. Is BMW engineering too spaced out or are they simply 'out of this world'... meaning still building them in Antarctica?
Klaus Habermohl, a BMW engineer who worked as part of the Flugzeug Special Projects Group in Prague, was captured by the Russians in Prague on or about 11th May 1945. He undoubtedly helped the construction of a Soviet disc and I recently came across plans for another Soviet low aspect aircraft that would have used Nuclear propulsion...
Perhaps the most important and hidden aspect of this was the increasing threat of Soviet penetration of US airspace via Alaska. In any case the CIA was most concerned about 'non-conventional air vehicles' under development by the Soviets as the 14th June 1954 memorandum entitled "Intelligence Responsibilities for Non-Conventional Types of Air Vehicles" makes very clear.
SOURCE: HAUNEBU H-GERÄT HAUNEBURG DEVICE
Perhaps the most important and hidden aspect of this was the increasing threat of Soviet penetration of US airspace via Alaska. In any case the CIA was most concerned about 'non-conventional air vehicles' under development by the Soviets as the 14th June 1954 memorandum entitled "Intelligence Responsibilities for Non-Conventional Types of Air Vehicles" makes very clear.
SOURCE: HAUNEBU H-GERÄT HAUNEBURG DEVICE
CB
Kind of reminds me of a bad hairpiece...
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2nd Gear
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Hi Red boy,
Have you tried the R56 ?
The reason I ask is because I am thinking that I'd probably be happier with a highly tweaked and tuned GEN I Mini as a second car than a more recent and heavier Mini. From what I've gathered from other members here, while all things considered the latest Minis are all around better made and give more performance, the first series gives more sensations and is closer to a sports car with more road feel than the current models which thanks to overly insulated steering make you feel like you're driving wearing boxing gloves.
Also, what earlier vintage R53 Mini would you recommend getting as a second car, one to really play rough with and toss around the curves? Thanks in advance for any advice!
CB
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From: Houston, TX
Today I went to Houston Auto show and where excited to see the 500 up close but that excitement did not last that long, I can tell it looks like a very cute little car, the interior combinations are very interesting, it is defiantly much smaller than the MINI hatch and no comparison to Clubman. interior quality is acceptable on dash panel but the door panels are from very cheap plastic that had lots of nail marks on them, door handles and rear passenger easy access looked like an after taught and they looked and felt extremely cheap. seats where much softer than MINI but small.
MINI is in a totally different segment, In comparison MINI is a Premium quality car and there is no way you can put both of them in one class.
at the end I pass on, even if the Abarth version comes with more features and options.
MINI is in a totally different segment, In comparison MINI is a Premium quality car and there is no way you can put both of them in one class.
at the end I pass on, even if the Abarth version comes with more features and options.
Are any of you old enough to remember the last time Fiat had a US presence? Or why they left (run out of town)? Horrible build quality. Remember the X1/9? The car that rusted out so badly that it became a see-thru car?
Not saying that things haven't changed, but it will take a lot more than clever marketing to get me to put $$ into a "fix it again Tony"
Not saying that things haven't changed, but it will take a lot more than clever marketing to get me to put $$ into a "fix it again Tony"
I don't care much for the styling on the Fiat 500 but I feel compelled to defend the little X1/9. I bought one new in 1976 and drove it for 5 yrs in Nevada and Colorado with no problems. It only weighed about 2000 lbs and was an excellent autocrosser. The only thing I would have changed would have been to add a little more hp. Fiats did have a reputations for being rust-prone but mine did just fine even after being exposed to 3 Colorado winters.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Charlotte, NC
Interesting discussion. Watched an old Top Gear yesterday where they tested the 500 Abarth and looked like an outstanding car. I sorta have a soft spot for Fiats, drove a 850 Spider in High School and later bought a new X1/9.
The 500 goes on sale here in the States soon with a few differences from yours. No Abarth at first, only avaliable manual is a 5 speed and it will be assembled in Mexico with a made in USA engine
The 500 goes on sale here in the States soon with a few differences from yours. No Abarth at first, only avaliable manual is a 5 speed and it will be assembled in Mexico with a made in USA engine
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