R53 > R56 > R53
#301
02-01-2008, 07:59 AM
Great, so you've made NO contributions to the thread.
Well, except for trolling.
so, what color is your MINI?
#302
02-01-2008, 07:59 AM
And going and going
how little content can turn into so many pages of endless debate. What we all know to be subjective value judgements keep going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going with about as much productivity as this last sentence.
Matt
Matt
Matt
ps, this thread is reminding me of a line from "Law and Order". The police leutenant said.... "this one is leaving skid marks as it goes around and down." or something like that.....
Why get ones panties in such a wad? If you like one or another or both or neither that's all good and fine! But just feeding the never ending debate has never resulted in anyone actually changing their mind, as far as I can tell. Only driving experience has ever done that.
So what have I learned from these threads?
1) Don't feed the animals. If you do, they just keep coming back.
2) We all have too much time on our hands!
#305
02-01-2008, 08:10 AM
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"How would you respond if someone called your Significant Other 'ugly'?"
#306
02-01-2008, 08:17 AM
Which observations? The length of service time of each engine? Already shown that they will have the same service time. You chose not to respond once that was pointed out.
Design compromises in the sake of cost/appeal to wider audience/profit? I think WAY back in this thread it was made pretty clear why some of the design changes were made, and also that it is pretty important for the company to make money so that they can continue to build cars. And the fact that they'd be stupid to design a car that was difficult to manufacture.
Magazine reviews/comparos? Already shown that both cars have finished 3rd in comparos (actually, the 2006 R53 was 3rd of 3, while the 07 was 3rd of 4. At least it beat somthing!) Again, you chose not to respond once it was pointed out.
R56 engine source? Already shown that the Prince is at least built by MINI, not in south america. You've chosen not to respond.
Actual comparison of the engines in a relative sense? The Prince wins on emmissions, efficiency, power, torque, and weight. The tritec wins on sound. The jury is still out on longevity and mod-ability. You've chosen not to respond to the question of why wouldn't a 'driver's car' have the more powerful engine.
Engine collaboration? As I've explained, this is normal business practice. You've chosen not to respond.
So what do you have left? A few people that rate steering feel and engine note over actual performance (which I don't have a problem with, that is their preference) so they go back to the R53. A few early engine troubles with the R56. Interestingly there were a few early engine troubles with the Tritec as well. Seems about a wash.
All you've done is move from one false or (at the best) misleading statement to another to try make a point. Each time, it has been pointed out that you are incorrect/twisting reality to match your argument. This started out talking about which car was a 'driver's car'. Now the "The R56 isn't a real MINI" crowd has had to move on to "the engine is no good".
Your contribution thus far has been 'French Fryer', "piston slap", and 'it's ugly'.
And you still haven't answered the questions people have asked about whether or not you have a MINI at all.
Based on all of this, yes, I can only conclude that you are a troll.
Design compromises in the sake of cost/appeal to wider audience/profit? I think WAY back in this thread it was made pretty clear why some of the design changes were made, and also that it is pretty important for the company to make money so that they can continue to build cars. And the fact that they'd be stupid to design a car that was difficult to manufacture.
Magazine reviews/comparos? Already shown that both cars have finished 3rd in comparos (actually, the 2006 R53 was 3rd of 3, while the 07 was 3rd of 4. At least it beat somthing!) Again, you chose not to respond once it was pointed out.
R56 engine source? Already shown that the Prince is at least built by MINI, not in south america. You've chosen not to respond.
Actual comparison of the engines in a relative sense? The Prince wins on emmissions, efficiency, power, torque, and weight. The tritec wins on sound. The jury is still out on longevity and mod-ability. You've chosen not to respond to the question of why wouldn't a 'driver's car' have the more powerful engine.
Engine collaboration? As I've explained, this is normal business practice. You've chosen not to respond.
So what do you have left? A few people that rate steering feel and engine note over actual performance (which I don't have a problem with, that is their preference) so they go back to the R53. A few early engine troubles with the R56. Interestingly there were a few early engine troubles with the Tritec as well. Seems about a wash.
All you've done is move from one false or (at the best) misleading statement to another to try make a point. Each time, it has been pointed out that you are incorrect/twisting reality to match your argument. This started out talking about which car was a 'driver's car'. Now the "The R56 isn't a real MINI" crowd has had to move on to "the engine is no good".
Your contribution thus far has been 'French Fryer', "piston slap", and 'it's ugly'.
And you still haven't answered the questions people have asked about whether or not you have a MINI at all.
Based on all of this, yes, I can only conclude that you are a troll.
I took plenty of crap over the years I owned my R53 about it being a clown car, a chick's car, etc and it never caused me to question my purchase or throw an e-fit and respond by calling names. Grow up.
The power and torque produce by the PSA engine is impressive - it's relatively lightweight and packs a bevy of technological features.
Unfortunately, under the bonnet heat management issues and early bugaboos such as the "piston slap" have arisen. Additionally, BMW severed their relationship with Peugeot before the new model was even a year old.
Considering the amount of time and effort spend on designing and testing this engine, that move is a wee bit suspicious. Maybe it's something innocent and simple - maybe it's not. Either way it will be interested to see what the driving factors for the breakup in the PSA relationship were.
All of you who somehow take offense that Slag and others are pointing out that the R56 was designed for a broader mass-market appeal need to do a reality check - that was BMW's stated goal with the R56. Throwing a fit and calling someone a troll for pointing this out is, well, trollish.
FWIW, neither car was loved by the press. Both iterations have been called out for having cartoon styling and for lagging behind the competitors. With the first gen being slightly more tightly focused and more of a niche car, the criticism was understandable. However, when a manufacturer redesigns the car to compete more directly with the likes of an older GTI design and it still gets it's lunch handed to it - obviously the goal wasn't reached.
#307
02-01-2008, 08:35 AM
My criticism is about the R56... and you continue to respond with personal attacks. You should take some time out from this discussion... to personalize criticism of the R56 to a point is understandable... however you are taking this entire thread far to personal.
Last edited by slag1911; 02-01-2008 at 02:05 PM.
#308
02-01-2008, 08:57 AM
Apparently, judging by the way some people around here fall to pieces when someone criticizes their car, this thread should give you a pretty good idea.
#309
02-01-2008, 09:47 AM
Mark
#310
02-01-2008, 10:50 AM
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FAKE HOOD SCOOP
Is it just me that finds it a bit odd to complain that the R56S hoodscoop is for aesthetic purposes only? Seriously, do these enthusiasts wring their hands with malaise as they walk past their R53's newly applied racing stripes to offer a mental reprimand to MINI for such abomination?
Very odd...like 7
Very odd...like 7
#311
02-01-2008, 10:58 AM
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Is it just me that finds it a bit odd to complain that the R56S hoodscoop is for aesthetic purposes only? Seriously, do these enthusiasts wring their hands with malaise as they walk past their R53's newly applied racing stripes to offer a mental reprimand to MINI for such abomination?
Very odd...like 7
Very odd...like 7
The primary purpose of racing stripes would be to modify the appearance of the car, while the primary purpose of the scoop is to allow outside air a way into the engine bay and to whatever engine internals and etc.
I think the gripe is using the scoop for its aesthetic value, rather than for its intended function.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just what I've seen and heard at least.
#312
02-01-2008, 11:01 AM
Is it just me that finds it a bit odd to complain that the R56S hoodscoop is for aesthetic purposes only? Seriously, do these enthusiasts wring their hands with malaise as they walk past their R53's newly applied racing stripes to offer a mental reprimand to MINI for such abomination?
Very odd...like 7
Very odd...like 7
#313
02-01-2008, 11:24 AM
Although I don't share that view as far as caring about scoops on the R53 vs R56, I think the general consensus among those who feel strongly about it is because of the difference between what a scoop and something like racing stripes are for.
The primary purpose of racing stripes would be to modify the appearance of the car, while the primary purpose of the scoop is to allow outside air a way into the engine bay and to whatever engine internals and etc.
I think the gripe is using the scoop for its aesthetic value, rather than for its intended function.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just what I've seen and heard at least.
The primary purpose of racing stripes would be to modify the appearance of the car, while the primary purpose of the scoop is to allow outside air a way into the engine bay and to whatever engine internals and etc.
I think the gripe is using the scoop for its aesthetic value, rather than for its intended function.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's just what I've seen and heard at least.
#314
02-01-2008, 11:32 AM
What if they really are ugly?
How about calling someone a troll? If "ugly" is considered a personal attack, then "troll" should be too. Trolls are both ugly and stupid so maybe the Crack Moderation Team should give BSUCardinalFan TWO infractions for continually calling Slag a troll.
Toodles,
Skip
#315
02-01-2008, 11:36 AM
Even if you are correct, what about the spoiler. At best, the stock spoiler serves no meaningful purpose on the street Mini. At worse, it actually increases drag. And don't say it's there to keep the rear clean. We all know that's bull and even if it were ture, it does a lousy job of it.
Is your contention that the spoiler on the Mini generates too much drag and that the lift/drag ratio is compromised? If so, can you post links to where you got this data. Maybe you are onto something.
#316
02-01-2008, 11:55 AM
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Even if you are correct, what about the spoiler. At best, the stock spoiler serves no meaningful purpose on the street Mini. At worse, it actually increases drag. And don't say it's there to keep the rear clean. We all know that's bull and even if it were ture, it does a lousy job of it.
#317
02-01-2008, 01:51 PM
If Slag has pushed you to the point where you need to respond to his criticism of an inanimate object by calling him a name - maybe you need to ignore the thread.
I took plenty of crap over the years I owned my R53 about it being a clown car, a chick's car, etc and it never caused me to question my purchase or throw an e-fit and respond by calling names. Grow up.
The power and torque produce by the PSA engine is impressive - it's relatively lightweight and packs a bevy of technological features.
Unfortunately, under the bonnet heat management issues and early bugaboos such as the "piston slap" have arisen. Additionally, BMW severed their relationship with Peugeot before the new model was even a year old.
Considering the amount of time and effort spend on designing and testing this engine, that move is a wee bit suspicious. Maybe it's something innocent and simple - maybe it's not. Either way it will be interested to see what the driving factors for the breakup in the PSA relationship were.
All of you who somehow take offense that Slag and others are pointing out that the R56 was designed for a broader mass-market appeal need to do a reality check - that was BMW's stated goal with the R56. Throwing a fit and calling someone a troll for pointing this out is, well, trollish.
FWIW, neither car was loved by the press. Both iterations have been called out for having cartoon styling and for lagging behind the competitors. With the first gen being slightly more tightly focused and more of a niche car, the criticism was understandable. However, when a manufacturer redesigns the car to compete more directly with the likes of an older GTI design and it still gets it's lunch handed to it - obviously the goal wasn't reached.
I took plenty of crap over the years I owned my R53 about it being a clown car, a chick's car, etc and it never caused me to question my purchase or throw an e-fit and respond by calling names. Grow up.
The power and torque produce by the PSA engine is impressive - it's relatively lightweight and packs a bevy of technological features.
Unfortunately, under the bonnet heat management issues and early bugaboos such as the "piston slap" have arisen. Additionally, BMW severed their relationship with Peugeot before the new model was even a year old.
Considering the amount of time and effort spend on designing and testing this engine, that move is a wee bit suspicious. Maybe it's something innocent and simple - maybe it's not. Either way it will be interested to see what the driving factors for the breakup in the PSA relationship were.
All of you who somehow take offense that Slag and others are pointing out that the R56 was designed for a broader mass-market appeal need to do a reality check - that was BMW's stated goal with the R56. Throwing a fit and calling someone a troll for pointing this out is, well, trollish.
FWIW, neither car was loved by the press. Both iterations have been called out for having cartoon styling and for lagging behind the competitors. With the first gen being slightly more tightly focused and more of a niche car, the criticism was understandable. However, when a manufacturer redesigns the car to compete more directly with the likes of an older GTI design and it still gets it's lunch handed to it - obviously the goal wasn't reached.
#318
02-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Slagg I will have to assume you didn't read my previous post as you have ignored it completely . Here it is again for you to ponder.
First off I have a R-53 and have no thought of going to a R-56 but not for any of the reasons you are harping on . You keep talking about the Prince engine being dumped in 5 years . There wasn't that much whining when the R-53 power plant was scrapped after almost the same time period why is it such a big deal now . As for the Tritec having the ability to be heavily modded it needs to be to keep up with that damn Prince. You will need a good head, exhaust , CAI and tuning to be even with a stock one .If they add a $600 unichip you won't have a shot at all. You are on such a mission to put the R-56 down one would think you may have tried to keep up with one and didn't make out that well. That is if you actually do have a Mini , Do you ? You keep mentioning that a few have gone from a R-56 to a R - 53. Have you compared that number to those that have gone from a R-53 to R -56 ?
Additionally I really have to laugh when I hear the " ugly " comments. I would think that 75% of Mini owners or former ones such as yourself would have a hard time picking out a R-56 verses a R-53 . For non owners, such as yourself , the percentage is most likely above 90%. If the R-56 is such a ugly duckling can then what does it make the R-53 ? Seriously the average " man on the street ' can't tell them apart so if one is as ugly as you say then to most people they all are.
First off I have a R-53 and have no thought of going to a R-56 but not for any of the reasons you are harping on . You keep talking about the Prince engine being dumped in 5 years . There wasn't that much whining when the R-53 power plant was scrapped after almost the same time period why is it such a big deal now . As for the Tritec having the ability to be heavily modded it needs to be to keep up with that damn Prince. You will need a good head, exhaust , CAI and tuning to be even with a stock one .If they add a $600 unichip you won't have a shot at all. You are on such a mission to put the R-56 down one would think you may have tried to keep up with one and didn't make out that well. That is if you actually do have a Mini , Do you ? You keep mentioning that a few have gone from a R-56 to a R - 53. Have you compared that number to those that have gone from a R-53 to R -56 ?
Additionally I really have to laugh when I hear the " ugly " comments. I would think that 75% of Mini owners or former ones such as yourself would have a hard time picking out a R-56 verses a R-53 . For non owners, such as yourself , the percentage is most likely above 90%. If the R-56 is such a ugly duckling can then what does it make the R-53 ? Seriously the average " man on the street ' can't tell them apart so if one is as ugly as you say then to most people they all are.
#319
02-01-2008, 03:50 PM
Slagg I will have to assume you didn't read my previous post as you have ignored it completely . Here it is again for you to ponder.
First off I have a R-53 and have no thought of going to a R-56 but not for any of the reasons you are harping on . You keep talking about the Prince engine being dumped in 5 years . There wasn't that much whining when the R-53 power plant was scrapped after almost the same time period why is it such a big deal now . As for the Tritec having the ability to be heavily modded it needs to be to keep up with that damn Prince. You will need a good head, exhaust , CAI and tuning to be even with a stock one .If they add a $600 unichip you won't have a shot at all. You are on such a mission to put the R-56 down one would think you may have tried to keep up with one and didn't make out that well. That is if you actually do have a Mini , Do you ? You keep mentioning that a few have gone from a R-56 to a R - 53. Have you compared that number to those that have gone from a R-53 to R -56 ?
Additionally I really have to laugh when I hear the " ugly " comments. I would think that 75% of Mini owners or former ones such as yourself would have a hard time picking out a R-56 verses a R-53 . For non owners, such as yourself , the percentage is most likely above 90%. If the R-56 is such a ugly duckling can then what does it make the R-53 ? Seriously the average " man on the street ' can't tell them apart so if one is as ugly as you say then to most people they all are.
First off I have a R-53 and have no thought of going to a R-56 but not for any of the reasons you are harping on . You keep talking about the Prince engine being dumped in 5 years . There wasn't that much whining when the R-53 power plant was scrapped after almost the same time period why is it such a big deal now . As for the Tritec having the ability to be heavily modded it needs to be to keep up with that damn Prince. You will need a good head, exhaust , CAI and tuning to be even with a stock one .If they add a $600 unichip you won't have a shot at all. You are on such a mission to put the R-56 down one would think you may have tried to keep up with one and didn't make out that well. That is if you actually do have a Mini , Do you ? You keep mentioning that a few have gone from a R-56 to a R - 53. Have you compared that number to those that have gone from a R-53 to R -56 ?
Additionally I really have to laugh when I hear the " ugly " comments. I would think that 75% of Mini owners or former ones such as yourself would have a hard time picking out a R-56 verses a R-53 . For non owners, such as yourself , the percentage is most likely above 90%. If the R-56 is such a ugly duckling can then what does it make the R-53 ? Seriously the average " man on the street ' can't tell them apart so if one is as ugly as you say then to most people they all are.
So as to not call him a name, and get skiploader angry, I'll just say this:
slags post are only for the purpose of trolling for responses, so in that way I guess he feels happy about himself. since he isn't a MINI owner (and doesn't want to acknowledge it in this thread) he is apparently only here to feed his own ego.
at this point, I feel sorry for him, to be so worked up about a marque that he isn't even interested in enough to own.
#320
02-01-2008, 04:48 PM
He's not interested in discussion, he knows he has no points, and is 'facts' as he puts them are easily shown to be false.
So as to not call him a name, and get skiploader angry, I'll just say this:
slags post are only for the purpose of trolling for responses, so in that way I guess he feels happy about himself. since he isn't a MINI owner (and doesn't want to acknowledge it in this thread) he is apparently only here to feed his own ego.
at this point, I feel sorry for him, to be so worked up about a marque that he isn't even interested in enough to own.
So as to not call him a name, and get skiploader angry, I'll just say this:
slags post are only for the purpose of trolling for responses, so in that way I guess he feels happy about himself. since he isn't a MINI owner (and doesn't want to acknowledge it in this thread) he is apparently only here to feed his own ego.
at this point, I feel sorry for him, to be so worked up about a marque that he isn't even interested in enough to own.
Trackster brings up a question that should be answered - does anybody know what the performance differences are (0-60, 1/4 mile) between the 06 MCS and the 07 MCS? Perhaps if someone can share them, we can see how much of a performance advantage the PSA powerplant has.
#321
02-01-2008, 05:01 PM
+1.... it is interesting how BSUCardinalFan continues to personalize this tread to the point of continually attacking me personally, vs. the discussion topic, which is centric around rationalizing why folks are dumping the R56 in favor of the R53... yet I see no moderation.
#322
02-01-2008, 05:17 PM
Slagg I will have to assume you didn't read my previous post as you have ignored it completely . Here it is again for you to ponder.
First off I have a R-53 and have no thought of going to a R-56 but not for any of the reasons you are harping on . You keep talking about the Prince engine being dumped in 5 years . There wasn't that much whining when the R-53 power plant was scrapped after almost the same time period why is it such a big deal now . As for the Tritec having the ability to be heavily modded it needs to be to keep up with that damn Prince. You will need a good head, exhaust , CAI and tuning to be even with a stock one .If they add a $600 unichip you won't have a shot at all. You are on such a mission to put the R-56 down one would think you may have tried to keep up with one and didn't make out that well. That is if you actually do have a Mini , Do you ? You keep mentioning that a few have gone from a R-56 to a R - 53. Have you compared that number to those that have gone from a R-53 to R -56 ?
Additionally I really have to laugh when I hear the " ugly " comments. I would think that 75% of Mini owners or former ones such as yourself would have a hard time picking out a R-56 verses a R-53 . For non owners, such as yourself , the percentage is most likely above 90%. If the R-56 is such a ugly duckling can then what does it make the R-53 ? Seriously the average " man on the street ' can't tell them apart so if one is as ugly as you say then to most people they all are.
First off I have a R-53 and have no thought of going to a R-56 but not for any of the reasons you are harping on . You keep talking about the Prince engine being dumped in 5 years . There wasn't that much whining when the R-53 power plant was scrapped after almost the same time period why is it such a big deal now . As for the Tritec having the ability to be heavily modded it needs to be to keep up with that damn Prince. You will need a good head, exhaust , CAI and tuning to be even with a stock one .If they add a $600 unichip you won't have a shot at all. You are on such a mission to put the R-56 down one would think you may have tried to keep up with one and didn't make out that well. That is if you actually do have a Mini , Do you ? You keep mentioning that a few have gone from a R-56 to a R - 53. Have you compared that number to those that have gone from a R-53 to R -56 ?
Additionally I really have to laugh when I hear the " ugly " comments. I would think that 75% of Mini owners or former ones such as yourself would have a hard time picking out a R-56 verses a R-53 . For non owners, such as yourself , the percentage is most likely above 90%. If the R-56 is such a ugly duckling can then what does it make the R-53 ? Seriously the average " man on the street ' can't tell them apart so if one is as ugly as you say then to most people they all are.
Additionally, "upgrading" from an older model automobile to a newer model automobile is common place. I think the significance that we are discussing here is the phenomenon of R53 owners purchasing a new R56, then dumping it to return back to the R53. That is not a common trend, and surely must be troubling for BMW executives.
As for the "man on the street"... that can't tell the R53 from the R56... these are the "masses" that the new R56 is targeted at.
#323
02-01-2008, 08:16 PM
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Since it appears that there is no getting this thread back to a reasonable level of discussion and its filled with personal attacks I think its time to close it down. At least this way everyone that is duking it out in here can go and enjoy some time with friends and family this weekend.
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