I forgot about this amazing fact discussed during the race: In the modern grand prix era only 99 drivers have won an F1 race. That blew my mind. It goes to show that to win just one F1 race is a huge accomplishment for a driver; something that is easily lost when we concentrate our attention on the top couple teams.

 

Lesser team member?!?!?! Just because Lewis made a huge mistake giving Kimi the championship last year doesn't make him a better driver then Massa. I'm courious what makes Kimi a better driver in your views. Keep in mind Kimi had the privilege in driving a better car pre Ferrari days over Massa.

 

I think lesser was in quotation marks because she was saying that was the perception, not necessarily the reality.

(I don't think many people doubt that Kimi is a top-tier F1 driver, however.)

 

Correct Massa and Kimi are top tier, thats why they are driving for Ferrari. On who maybe better of the 2.....well the jury is still out on that.

 

Top Tier doesn't always drive for Ferrari!

 

You are right any driver in F1 is top tier, What I meant is Ferrari, McLaren usualy have the $$$ to get the best. I can't name a bad driver in either team for the last 15 years.

 

Some would argue that David Coulthard is not a top-tier driver as far as F1 goes.

 

Let's not forget who both got his first pole and first victory this year....

I'd say he's top tier, just also getting old.

 

See, my personal F1 memory goes back to 1965!

Ferrari AND McLaren had some pretty long dry periods. Lotus, Tyrrell, Williams and Brabham won a lot of races with top tier drivers!

 

I was talking about top tier among F1 drivers, not among all drivers in the world.

Current Top Tier:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Kimi
4. Massa
5. Kubica

(Difficult to say who should be 4 vs. 5 at this point.)

Soon to be added: Vettel

 

It is interesting to note that you included Sebastian Vettel. I quite agree that he is a "top tier".

But take note that a driver's ability can be thoroughly masked by an inferior or less developed F1 machine. There are other hidden gems on today's F1 grid...

Nico Rosberg, Adrian Sutil, Sebastien Bourdais, Timo Glock...

Talent usually rises to the top but that is not always the case I'm afraid. F1 is a very dog eat dog world and there have been those drivers that due to adverse circumstances have been swept aside... regarded by the racing press and others as not worthy. One day you're regarded as a "the real deal" and a couple of poor showings later, you can be dismissed... no longer the "flavor of the month".

At one time Fernando Alonso was in jeopardy of being overlooked when he was with the Minardi team. Fortunately one Flavio Briatore was shrewd enough to spot an emerging talent.

I believe that for the great majority of drivers competing in F1, just making it there proves that they are "top tier".

Just my .02

 

Top tier???.... It's more car than driver in F1. Just look at the quilifying times people....Is anyone prepared to tell me that a driver that ended up 1.2 seconds back in 12th is a crappy driver, or is it the vehicle? (mostly)

And it even goes to say that who you have as engineers plays a big part. Toyota spends a god awful amont of money and thay have disappointing results so far....

 

The car obviously has a lot to do with race performance, but not everything (look at what Alonso has done in a mid-pack Renault this year). Drivers still can distinguish themselves as Massa did when he started out for a bottom rung team.

I based my list on what I've heard from Speed's announcers, particularly Peter Windsor who is tuned in to the consensus among team principals.

Sutil's stock has risen (at Spa in the rain, for instance) and fallen (many other times).

Rosberg started strong, but hasn't distinguished himself too much since.

Bourdais is still learning F1 tracks. He hasn't had any flashes of brilliance like Sutil in the wet, but he hasn't embarassed himself either.

Timo Glock I'm not sure of. He generally is well off Trulli's pace in qualifying, though.

 

In the rarefied air that is F1 a 1.2 second difference is an eternity. Now does that make the driver inferior ("crappy driver")? I think not. Racing has always been a pairing of man and/or woman & machine. Today's F1 car is a difficult steed to manage (especially without the computerized driver aids). To be able to drive one of these cars in competition says alot about that individual's skill as a driver.

Sometimes we become too obsessed with lap times. Perhaps the best yardstick to judge a driver's ability, is in watching his performance during a race.

Is that particular driver getting the most out of his car? Is he able to "hang with" some of the front runners, keeping them in sight? Is he competitive with those who qualified around him? Is his "racecraft" good (attempting passes whenever feasible using good judgement)?

Maybe those are the things that we should look at rather than the raw speed of qualifying? The above qualities, I believe, are those that can make up for the deficiencies of a poor performing chassis and prove a driver's worth.

The disparity that exists between the well funded teams and those struggling to emerge from Q1 is a very large gap indeed. But you are correct S-Driver in stating that $$$$$$ does not always make a team/driver quick. Both Toyota and Honda (before them Ford/Jaguar) have thrown massive amounts of money into their F1 programs and where has it gotten them? They are still puttzing around midfield or worse.

bee1000n you are wise in listening to the likes of Peter Windsor. I also think that Matchett, Hobbs & Varsha are worth listening to as they have keen insight derived from their association with F1 & motorsports.

Rosberg, Sutil, Bourdais, & Glock all are talented and overlooked in general due to the teams that they are associated with at present. If they can last long enough in F1 and they catch a break or two, increasing their stock among the F1 cognoscenti, then I'm sure that we will see some sterling performances out of them making them worthy of the "top tier driver" accolade.

On an aside, Timo Glock turned in a journeyman performance at Hockenhiem until the Toyota let him down with that horrible suspension failure and resulting shunt. Too Bad!

 

Lesser drivers, how about Nelson Piquet ?

We all know the second place was a gift of the safety car and luck. His performance so far has been truly dismal especially when his father was saying at the start of the season that Lewis was no match for him. If he was truly a match then he would be challenging Alonso consistently for grid and finish positions.

Obviously he would not be in the seat if he were not a good driver (No doubt he would clean my clock in anything with wheels) but he does not show the race performance that someone like Sutil or some of the other backmarkers show in inferior cars.

I think comparing Alonso to Nelson is a perfect example of World Champ and perhaps one who needs more track time.

It will be very interesting to see if he makes it to next season.

 

Nelson is in that seat for two reasons: (1) His name has to be attractive to sponsors, (2) Alonso definitely needs to be a clear #1 driver to be happy!

 

What Alonso needs is a Barrichello, an experienced driver who can assist with car development, keep the points coming in, and win if he goes out

 

Next week Super Aguri's assets will auctioned off online. You can get yourself an F1 car, a transporter, merchandise, an autoclave and all sorts of stuff. A few pictures are here.

Like whatever this is:


Or this:


The catalog is supposed to be online on 7/23.

 

I thought the rumor was an American company was to buy SA and make an attempt ?

 

Here ya go:
http://faro.com/content.aspx?ct=us&c...em=2&subitem=2
It's a portable measurement arm. What they should auction off is the chair they used to sit in and cry each time they retired early from ramming someone off the track.

 

That's why "lesser" is in quotes. I don't know who is better between Kimi and Massa, but Ferrari has a pretty definite one-two driver pecking order. And Massa is outdriving Kimi right now--big time.

 

There's no question Massa is a brilliant driver, but

1) He seems to let his emotions get the best of him

2) He's lousy in the interview room, not until recently did he start thanking the team.

3) He's very defensive when it comes to criticism

Kimi on the otherhand is:

1) The Iceman, always cool under pressure, always.

2) Knows that there's a long way to go in the season

3) Never seems to place the blame for poor performance on anyone.

I still recall Kimi midway though last season looking bored in the interview room after getting 3rd place, he was like "my season is toast, I'll never win the Championship"

Last year everyone says Hamilton blew the championship but when you look at the whole season there was plenty of errors made by Mclaren. Yeah it was in his hands but I can't imagine the pressure. I recall how tough it was when I made the final round at the dragstrip the first time, and that's just a weekend redneck thing and the only money on the line was my own.

The fact is his first season was awesome and 2008 is proving that he's not just a flash in the pan. Does he have the right car, sure, is it as good as the Ferrari, probably not. What he does have is talent and determination, the bad press and mistakes seem to have fueled his desire to win even more.

This is by far the best F1 season in a long time, hope it continues all the way down to the end !

 

Now if he would only remove those ice cubes from his mouth in the interview room, we might understand him!

 

You forgot number 4.

4) Can't drive in the rain.

I think that will stop him from being a truly great driver.

 

I agree 100% on the bad driver in the rain but have to disagree about it stopping him. There's a lot of people who suck in the wet and he happens to be one of them. Few can do great in the wet and one of the best (in the rain) happens to be doing lousy this year and that is Fred. If anything, to me, it seems like Ferrari as a builder can't do well in the wet so much as 1 specific driver. Maybe they almost always set their car for dry hoping it will be dry and got caught a few times.