Can the JCW be considered a true performance car? I’m a proud owner of a JCW and regularly track the car. I enjoy driving it spiritedly around twisty back roads and the good gas mileage makes it a great daily commuter. But I’m wondering if it’s really a performance car disguised as an economy car as it’s regularly reviewed to be. Below are my points:

Negatives

Front Wheel Drive – Does a FWD car with lots of torque steer qualify as a performance car? If so, what was the last major racing title won by a FWD car?

Weight distribution – The weight distribution of a performance car should be 50/50 front to back allowing for neutral handling at the limits. In a true performance car this would also apply to side-to-side distribution as well as opposite corner to opposite corner. The JCW is 62/38 front to rear.

Handling – The classic performance standard is neutral steering or a modest amount of oversteer. The engineers of the MINI programmed in gobs of understeer to keep the average driver from getting into trouble around high speed curves.

Aerodynamics - The MINI has a drag coeficient of .39 which is the same as a Dodge Durango, making it about as aero dynamic as a shoebox going down the highway.

Positives

I was always told that the test of performance car is being able to go from 0-100 MPH and then back to 0 in less than 20 seconds. The JCW just squeaks in to this category. The 0-100 MPH time is touted at 14.2 seconds, leaving just under 6 seconds for a panic stop from 100.

Conclusion

No doubt the JCW is fun to drive, and in the hands of a competent driver can easily hang with a base model Audi TT, BMW 1 Series, or Porsche Boxster on the track. However, I’m not convinced it’s a true performance car.

 

I think you mean understeer...

Anyway, I view the JCW as somewhere in that grey area between regular cars and performance cars for 2 reasons:

1. There aren't that many 147mph econoboxes
2. MINIs are much more practical in everyday usage and ecologically friendly than many performance cars.

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

Performance car is a very subjective definition. What was considered classic in terms of balance, handling, etc... may not be the same now. The question I believe boils down to feel. I can take my JCW to Barber and drill a lot of "performance" cars into the ground so yeah, I think it's a fun little car with good performance. Are you going to beat a bunch of high end porsches and bmw's around the track- not if they know what they are doing, but I don't have a mini mortgage invested in my car, and the booster seats go back in when I leave the track for my kids. Try that in a Porsche...and don't talk about the Panamera thing- geez what an ugly car!

 

Don't forget that drag coefficient is just that - a coefficient. When actually calculating vehicle drag, you also have to multiply by the frontal area of the vehicle, which is where a MINI has a big advantage over the Durango.

Moral of the story - if the car is small enough, it doesn't really matter what the drag coefficient is.

In general, though, I agree that the MINI doesn't line up very well with the classic definition of a "sports car", but it's definitely a fun, "sporty" car.

 

Most of the newer MINIs you see on the road whether they be R55, 56 or 57 are Justas. A few are the Cooper S version and very rarely will you see a factory JCW. I live in the NYC area, lots of MINIs and lots of MINI dealerships around and in my 22 months of ownership I have seen less than 10 JCWs. So in that case when comparing MINIs its a performance car.

Comparing it to other cars... well its a beefed up Cooper S. It is a sporty quick little car. Definitely not in the class of a BMW M, Audi S or Porsche. In this clase BMW/MINI has fallen short. And fallen short in differentiating the brand.

I really enjoy my JCW but it would be nice if it was SIGNIFICANTLY different from a Cooper S like a M is to a 3 series. I would also like another 100hp too .

 

hmmm...

I guess the very long list of National class titles held by the Minis in SCCA autocross doesn't really qualify.

Perhaps the Open Class win at Targa recently gets close.

Naah... it's not a performance car - who am I kidding? And if I was a real racing driver I wouldn't be driving one.

Oh well. Off to get some more groceries...

:-)

NER ASP Class Champion 2005
NER STX Class Champion 2007
NER STX Class Leader 2010

 

Actually, .39 isn't all that bad...not really a shoe box when you compare some other numbers out there. The Hummer H2 now that's a box and a half..it has .57

A RT Dodge Viper is .45., A mid 80's Ferrari Testarossa is like 0.36 and a Mazda Miata is around .38.

I think when you compare most trucks and SUV's to the Durango, you will find Dodge did a wonderful job shaving off bits and pieces here and there to give that rig the .39 it has. A tremendous accomplishment for an SUV.

 

The JCW is just the high performance car in the Mini Cooper Group. It is not a Porsche or a Ferrari.

The Mini killed the class in The New Jersey Continental Challenge in the ST class if that means anything to you. First place is always nice!

I Belong to the Audi Club and have never ever been sneered at in any of the events I have attended. Most of My friends have Porsche's and they all respect that I keep up with the pack when we go out for a Saturday or Sunday breakfast run. They are car enthusiasts and know exactly what my JCW is. Even those people ask a lot of questions and check out my car. I never heard a bad word yet.

I hope this helps you.

 

Hmmm, let's see, here's a list of rear drive sports cars that I've shown taillights to, S2000, Mustang GT, 350Z, Miata, Z3

I understand where your coming from. In a technical sense, these cars compete more with the other hot hatches, Mazdaspeed3, GTI, even WRX.
Out of the box, it's tuned for average drivers, but for very little money you can get very neutral handling. Throw on some camber plates are a rear bar and it handles much more like a well balanced rear-driver.

 

I'm having a great time as a newbie in SCCA STX and continuing to move on up as I learn the car and add a few basic mods. I've owned many a monster in the past. The GreyLenz is simply the most fun car I've driven. I consider it a full up sports car with a big *** trunk. And the OSG LSD is transformational. My first autox event with it is tomorrow. Yippie Kai Yea...!!!

 

From just reading the title to this thread I thought:

OP... Troll or wannabe?

 

I re-red the OP's original post and I do not think he is a Troll. He was just asking a simple question. He just wants to know if his car is a Performance car.

I think with the #198 Mini winning the previous two Continental Challenge "ST" class races and a second place in the last race at Millers Motorsports park in Salt Lake UT. I would really have to say A big """YES"""

They don't call the Mini's "THE FLYING BRICKS" for nothing.



If anyone gets speed TV tune into the rerun of the Continental Challenge to see some good racing. This Mini got a whole lot of coverage and came in 2nd. place. It came in first place the previous two races. It runs in the "ST" class.

 

so if y'all cant construct any cohesive argument to the OPs question, the solution is to brand him a troll? What has this forum come to, a gaggle of sensitive wannabe fan-boys who take offense to any negativity regarding their precious cars, and show no respect in doing so??

OK here's my .02: maybe the JCW is considered "performance" among MINIs, it's still a wannabe among true performance cars which, btw, send their power to the REAR or ALL wheels. Oh wait, someone already said that, silly me Guess Im a 3,766 post troll.

 

In the way we mean "performance car" in the US, I don't think the MINI fits the label either. Even if it is a 300HP MINI that could beat some "performance" cars all day long.

Fundamentally the MINI is a hatchback, which makes it look like an "econo box" but with smarter styling. I'm not dissing the MINI at all --it is what it is. In the US most hatchbacks are low performance, low cost, and not that fun to drive cars. But as all MINI fanboys and fangirls know, that description really doesn't fit the MINI either.

So what does? I agree with the euro term: hot hatch. I believe in everyway the MINI is a hot hatch, at least the MCS and JCW. In Europe and other parts of the world, there are many hot hatches, as the hot hatch has always been a practical alternative to a "performance" car for those that don't want to take on a second mortgage to buy a fun car.

Does anyone agree? I can tell you with certainty that the rest of the world considers the MCS/JCW hot hatches. Check this link and read the history of hot hatch for yourself, and see if this term doesn't fit better than any other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hatch

 

I did say, just from the title...

His post actually has some meat and he owns a JCW.

 

So, the purpose of the forum is to communicate with others what we like about our cars, and what we would like to see improved. I quess this thread did that looking at the number of replies.

I think MCSfanboy hit it on the head. The JCW falls into the category of "Hot Hatch" and should not be compared to M3's or 911's. So let's compare the JCW to other "Hot Hatch" performance models in the same price range.

We have the WRX STI which is the street model of recent WRC champions. It makes 300 HP and has AWD. What about the VW R32? Also has AWD and makes 240 HP. Why can't MINI offer an AWD version of their top performance model?

Just to fair, even the Mazdaspeed 3 at the cost of an MCS makes 263 HP and does not suffer from the torque steer problems of the JCW.

Speaking of torque steer, the MINI engineers are revising the torque steer programming of the traction control systems for 2011. It may be offered to 2009+ factory JCW owners as a retrofit. http://www.motoringfile.com/2010/08/...retrofit-poll/

I happen to think this electronic management of torque steer (EDLC) is voodoo. You have already spun the wheels faster on one side before the sensors tell the brakes modulate the wheel spin. Under hard acceleration this gives a bit of a zig-zag feelling to the car, which does not instill confidence when passing a tractor trailer at highway speeds.

My feeling is that if MINI does not want to offer AWD, they should at least go back to using a mechanical limited slip differential. This would better modulate torque steer at the time the power is applied to the road. IMHO

Other than the torque steer issue, I really do like JCW. But at times, trying to keep it going down the road in a staight line gets annoying.

 

My guess is it would be the same reason that we don't have a diesel: the unibody would require some rework and the number of likely sales isn't enough to make it profitable. I suspect that the tunnel and cargo underfloor may not be able to support a drive shaft and a differential, respectively. Also, the suspension mounting points are probably not designed to take drive loads. Maybe it could happen with the next generation of cars. Assuming that's when the sharing of FWD technology with the BMW line happens, that may be the time when the potential of sufficient sales could drive the whole process. They would also have had time in the marketplace with the Countryman ALL4.

Be interesting to find out what Mazda does that MINI doesn't.

Yes, but sensing the difference and sending a signal probably occurs MUCH faster than the mechanical response of the braking system.

Not sure how that happens unless you are accelerating from a very low speed to make the pass. On a 2-lane road, if I pass a truck it would usually be something like going from 50mph to 80; no wheelspin involved. Anyway, please explain the circumstances a little further.

 

One of the things I like about the JCW, I get mine in two or three days BTW, is that it doesn't look different than an MCS or a Justa. Stealth. Mine will be debadged as soon as it gets home from the dealer.

 

However, keep the badges as they are surprisingly expensive to replace...

 

I'm travelling on the NJ Turnpike at about 65 or 70mph. I want to pass a car. I rev the engine, downshift from 6th to 5th, or 6th to 4th and push the accelerator to the floor. The turbo spools up and most probably gets into overboost mode.

The car feels like pulls slightly to the left. I pull to the right slightly to compensate. The car moves moves to the right and then back on center. This happens so fast that it feels like the car is gently swaying back and forth.

I recently had an alignment, the tires are fairly new and in balance, and I check the pressure regularly. I'm running Yokohama Advan Sports (non run flats) in 215/45/ZR17 trim. They are very highly rated UHP summer tires.

Someone told me it could be the front control arm bushings, but with only 18k miles on the car, I hardly think they are worn out.

That's the best description I can give. Any ideas what causes this?

 

I de-badged mine the first week but I've kept every OEM part since I plan to keep the car till I'm dead.

BMW should offer a Quaife LSD as an option. The other oem LSD was not very good and the Quaife is first rate. A good LSD transforms the car. I had my first autox event today with the OS Giken LSD in place. It was a blast and makes the car even more fun to drive. Torgue steer is almost gone and the power through/out of corners in excellent. My times definitely improved as well.

 

Curious. While I have felt the front end move around under hard acceleration, I can't remember if it is predominately left or right. The only thing that comes to mind is where you are when you feel the pull to the left. If you are in the inner lane, I wonder if the crown in the road is increasing the effect?

 

Yes, that may have something to do with it. It seems like the 2nd Gen MINIs are more sensitive to irregularities in the road surface. The lower the gear the more the tug. As you get up into the high gears it seems to be less prevalent, but still there. This is the downfall of a front wheel drive car, trying to put power down and steer the car at the same time.

The funny thing is that I did not have this problem with my '03 MCS. It was tuned by Helix Motorsports and was turning 190 hp. Nite quite JCW territory by still pretty quick. I had no problems with managing the torque steer in that car.

I have also talked to many 2nd gen MCS owners and they say that thier cars also behave similarly to the JCW under hard acceleration. I think the combination of the tubocharged engine (more torque), a higher center of gravity (longer cv joints), and the electronic steering assist has all contributed to the 2nd gen MCS and factory JCW cars having this issue.

The addition of the JCW suspension, front and rear strut braces, and good tires has drastically reduced the level of torque steer inherent in the car, but has not totally eradicated it. It's something we just need to live with if we want to drive the JCW at 9/10ths.

flatlander_48, thanks for your insights.

 

Think again...

Since I'm redoing my entire car it seems, I decided while I had the engine/trans/cradle pulled, I would replace the control arm bushings wiht Powerflex bushings.

I have 27K miles on my '09 JCW and figured there is no way in hell hte bushings are shot already. (though I was told they probably already are)

Well, last week when I pulled them, the rubber bushing is SHOT.

Though I track my car and am harder on it than most drivers, there is still no reason for a set of bushings to be slam worn out with less than 30K miles yet mine were.

You'd be surprised.

Mark