tis teh season !

I was going to vote for Billary just to spite Hannity! That is until...I saw the Peter Paul vid on YouTube. All the Waco, Ruby Ridge, Vince Foster, Ron Brown, pictures came slamming back into the windshield of my mind and I thought...I wonder if Craven could make me a Political Filter that I could wear while listening to Hannity, Bortz, Rush, Beck, and the likes! How cool would that intake be! Of course that would probably only serve to muffle that "sucking sound" our boy Perot talked about

So there, hows that for keeping this "on topic"?!

***wonders to self: " Now where did I put that Political Particulate Meter?" ***

Kent

 

My favorite is Glenn Beck and Mike Savage. Savage is over the top. LOL. I'd like to filter the entire dang bunch of politicians out, but they keep reaching into my pocket. It's even more distracting the cell phones when your trying to drive. The entire House, Senate, Executive and Legal Branches should be tarred and feathered for what they are doing to this country.

And my wife wonders why I obsess over vehicles and other such "man" toys. LOL. I just don't want to think about everything else.

Back to particulate filtering!

Cheers!
Lee

 

there's a lot that goes into doing it well. I've done a lot of it badly, and a bunch that I would say barely passes muster (scientifically speaking, that is). To do it well, you need:

Pressure measurement equipement (preferably electronic, with logging). Multi point is needed to really do it right.

Temp measurement equipement, same caveat as above.

Diagnostic data logging equipment, and standard OBD-II isn't really fast enough for the power runs. It's just dog-assed slow, and can't really measure transients well. Neither can the Magnahelic, as the volume of the deliver lines and the bladders makes the pin swing all over the friggin place for fast transients. It does work for steady state though (only time I get usefull data from mine).

But there are some very interesting effects that you can see. When I looked at the Madness JCW filter performance, it LOOKED like the stocker delivered more air by looking at pressures only, but the Madness filter delivered more mass. Makes data analysis a total biatch.

Whoever gets the lucky prize needs to understand statistics as well. It is possible to get about 1%-2% repeatability from testing stuff like this, but for each data run, you have to make sure that water temps are within a few degrees C of each other, and if IATs are more than about 5 deg C above your testing floor, it WILL make the power run useless. So, if you're going to do the third gear pull for power number (I used second gear to about 70, could hit the rev limiter), you'll need to do a minimum of about 5 runs per state, cause a few will be off-baseline (that is if you're testing on the street, there's always cars around to mess with the run). For testing about 4 IC set ups, I did about 50 full power runs to get data that was accurate enough to see the small differences between set-ups.

Also, if any timing pull is present, then you have to do two sets of data: one on pump gas (to see real word effects) and one with about 95+ octain for full potential. Here in CA with our crappy gas, you get timing pull on full power runs with pretty much stock cars, for sure with as little as a pulley. This means about 70% of benefit will be negated by the knock sensor and will understate potential benefits. The only way to know is log timing while testing. It really is a total PITA to do good testing of a product in such a way to get statistically significant results.

One other way to go is to take the intake unit with all tubes and the like to a flow bench, and test it vs stock (have the air box to TB tube go into the flow bench). Then you can isolate the system and quantifiably compare airflow, but this doesn't say how much more power you put to the wheels. It does tell you about how much the flow delta is though.

And sound is sound, and is very subjective. DB meters are nice, but the frequency content really affects the subjective impression of the sound. Anyone got a specturm analyzser?

Matt

 

Flow Benches on ported or polished heads are black magic. There are some guys out there who can make some freaky power with a dremel tool. Others, well, they should stay on the bench.

As to just an intake though, I would completely agree with you. Ought to be straight forward since there are little if any variables. I would think you would come away with a simple set of performance numbers.

On a boosted engine the supply side is only for supply anyway. Get the lowest resistance path and highest volume available and let the charger or turbo do its job. Usually the first problem you have is cavitation which is a result of not being able to get the air out, not IN.

These ideas may be a little general, but as long as we are under 300hp this should be the case.

It would be interesting to know what Fireballed's experiences have been.

 

No question about that. I hope not to end the conversation on how it should be done but if I am going to give something away though, we must work our way towards something that can be done with reasonable control that still offers a glimpse of reality. It is impossible to eliminate all variables and create a vaccuum to operate since the variables are part of driving.

The question is... what do you want to know?

Is it most important you know the number and size of the particles that pass through a unifilter? Do you want to know the temperature of the air passing through the filter? Do you want to know the amount of air flow? How about the change in decibel level? Horsepower on a dyno? Change in acceleration at the track? I know there are more that have been brought up.

Tell me, tell us, what it is that you want to know. What is most important? Let's stick to objective, testable concepts and I am certain that something will stand out. Once we know what we are testing, then we can find someone here who is willing and capable to perform the test. So, what's it gonna be?

 

the number one rule of business is to separate the customer from his money.

the second rule is to find the highest number of customers that are willling to part with their money.

to me then, there are probably more people interested in a percieved change at the butt-dyno level and sound-level/tone than there are those who would like to feast on tech data.

as long as you are not sand blasting the cylinder walls and cutting oil life by 50% I would think your market is actual performance minded as opposed to ppm(parts per million) minded.

just my 2 cents.

 

that there ought to be independant data already on filter type vs particles vs clogging that doesn't need to be tested. So there are really only a couple thing that "matter" for an intake.

Power. This is really where it's at, and to test power you need not a dyno, but a real moving car. This is because of the pressure at the front of the windshield etc as the car moves. No one I know of has access to a dyno in a wind tunnel, so real road testing is where it's at. (personally, testing intakes on stationary dynos seems problematic at best, a waste of time at worst.) So you need some sort of performance meter like a G-Tech or similar.

Sound. This is subjective, but a lot of intakes are sold on the sound, or not sold if they let too much noise into the cabin.

To test the first, you need the performance meter, and a good method. To make sure the car is running well and the runs are repeatable, you need good logging equipement. At a minimum, you could use OBD-II to look at water temps and IATs to make sure the car "state" is good, and even though the data rates would suck, it should be able to see if timing pull is in play.

To test the second, you need a micraphone, and maybe a decible meter. Then you could get volume and sound quality.

And to answer a previous question, throttle response is affected by intakes, and is why I stayed with the HAI even though the base HAI (just stuffing a K&N on the TB) netted no power gains. Testing throttle response is a biatch though. Now you're chasing an even shorter transient, and that needs faster logging. 10 hz would only be marginal for that. 20hz or better would be able to do it well. And that stuff costs, cause you can't get that kind of data rate out of the OBD-II port. With BiM-COM beta (fastest for the gen 1 new Mini), you can get one data block at about 10 hz, but two data blocks and the rate is down to about 6 hz. OBD-II loggers have a tough time getting to 5 hz (AutoEnginuity is about 3 hz) for just one variable.

Matt

 

Honestly, I think you're between a rock and a hard place on this one...too many variables for the average or even above average user to contend with. Good luck with the cool marketing campaign though!

 

it just takes work to get good numbers. If you just want to par it down even more, find someone with a G-Tech, and and OBD-II logger. A digital camera with video can do the subjective sound stock vs intake.

For the person who really wants to do it, it's a good days work, a couple gallons of gas, and the time to put into it. For the vendor, it's providing an intake.

As far as the cynical posts about commerce, there's also the point of providing the customer what they want at an agreable price. This isn't extortion, it's trade and markets. If there is good information out there, the market works better.

Matt

 

G-tech - $200

Other goodies to test with - $200+

Butt-dyno making you smile every time you slam the accelerator - Priceless

 

I'm gonna say that It's not really important how many microns the particles are that get past the filter. All filters pass dirt in one form or an other. And frankly, chances are it's not going to do any damage. Otherwise why would so many racers run foam filters on $40K+ motors? Plus, if you are that worried about damage from micro particles why are you putting a CAI on anyway?

With regard to the filter the bigger questions are: Is the maintenance that is required to keep the filter working properly more of a hassle than it's worth? Is it something that gets washed & re-oiled every couple of months or every other week? What are the costs associated with maintaining the filter properly? How long does it take to do the process? Will the oil gum up any sensors downstream of the filter?

We all know that a CAI will add roughly 10 HP give or take a few. Results will always vary from car to car. To expect to get exactly the same results as a vendor's dyno chart is absurd. So why focus on the bench racing numbers & charts so much???

My premise is that it doesn't matter what gets charted, measured & plotted out your results will always be different. The more important info is what the intake is like to live with every day.

 

I dunno...ever heard an exhaust video and then the real thing...doesn't really do it justice. How many users here have an OBDII logger? Hell, I don't even have a quality video camera that I'd want to use for something like this. Matt, you are way above the average user on NAM, especially in relation to what we're talking about...which is why I think you disagree with me on this endeavor being above the average user BTW, thanks for being way above average...us simple folk need a few of you around.

Cynicism...sorry if I came off that way, and I'm not sure if you even meant that for me I think this is a creative, worthwhile marketing campaign...as was Craven's last effort at giving away product. But, I do think it's just that, a creative marketing campaign, which there is nothing wrong with. Where would America be without a little creative marketing

 

Where's the independent data on the filter types?

 

is that if the product sucks, Craven can't keep that rabbit in the hat!

Matt

 

Well put. I have the same sentiments. A test like this will not be perfect but should give, IMO, the most useful results. Unless there is some strong disagreement, lets set some parameters? How many runs are necessary? How much cool down time? What is reasonable to expect the test to show?

Also, I remember BCOBB having a GTech to play with. Anyone else want to throw their hat in while we nail down the testing procedure?

 

I'll throw mine in. Bone stock 06 S with ~30K miles.

Butt dyno is the only piece of testing equipment I have for this. But I am willing to be a guinea pig for any real testing equipment and procedures that need to be implemented.

 

After y'all get your bench racing numbers in line I'd still be up for doing long term real world evaluations.

Also aside from the pedals & a few cosmetic mods I'm still stock.

 

Butt dyno is purely psychological.

 

Maybe, but isn't that the point of marketing? All the gadgets on EBAY that boost horsepower or fuel mileage for $20, people buy it and think that it immediately made a difference. Although if you drive your vehicle enough then you can tell when something minor changes on it, ie: suspension or loss of power or throttle response or a slack tire. Some people just don't pay attention or are oblivious, they are not one with the vehicle.

 

..... ooooops, I forgot this !

 

Speaking of butt dynos, do you have a larger version of your signature pic?

 

There is a long, flat freeway entrance ramp near my house. I just get the car rolling in first, and then floor it in second from around 2000 RPMs till I bounce off the rev-limiter at around 7 grand. This is about 70 MPH. Then I put the car in 5th, set the cruise control at 65, and go to the next exit 2 miles away. This and the return trip take the car back to steady state. I use 5th gear so there's enough torque for the car speed to stay contant through the dips and hills between the exits.

I use logging equipement to look at IATs to see that they are within 10 degrees (5 is really best) of baseline (cruising right before I get off the freeway to the clover leaf at the testing exit) to make sure heat soak doesn't negatively effect results. I keep revs REAL LOW aroudn the clover leaf (going slow and revving high will raise temps measureably) so I don't upset the car state. When I get to my staging point I have about 20-30 seconds at idle or temps will rise too much and the next run is toast...

Repeat till you have a MINIMUM of three good runs (this usually takes me about 5-6 runs in total, waiting for everything to work out well is a pain). 5 to six good runs is better. When you plot the G-Tech runs you'll see the group that is repeatable, throw the rest away, and run your statistics. This technique gets me between 1% and 2% standard deviation, a bit worse than a well controlled engine dyno room, but freakin' good for street testing.

There's a park n' ride lot at the far exit, and this is where I do my equipement changes. An intake set up will take a bit of time, but the two mile return trip isn't good enough to get the car back to base state and the first run is usually toast. Repeat as needed.

I use the logging to look at water temp, IATs, and timing, at a minimum. If I see timing pull from the knock sensor, I got to a local gas station that has 100 octane, up the gas in the tank, and repeat the whole series again to see the power potential both with street gas and for the track junkies that run good gas.

If you have good gas (93 or 94 octane) for street gas you may not need the high octane stuff, but for the crappy CA gas, it's only fair to test a part to it's fullest potential, otherwise you're just seeing crappy numbers and can't tell why. Then the reader of the numbers can see what the part is capable of doing, as well as what it may do based on the gas that they can get at normal stations. FWIW, I've found that with my modded car, most bolt ons only get about 30% of thier potential due to timing pull, so the difference with good gas sure is noticable. Also, cars that have more mileage on them have more tendancy to pull timing, and a good dose of Techron or Sea-Foam will help eliminate that. Do some serching, there are some threads on it. I love Sea-Foam!

Anyway, for those that want to do the testing, know that to get good numbers it's more than just putting it on and writing some subjective BS about what you hear/feel/whatever. Butt-dynos are more calibrated to price points than actual performance, and audible difference effect your perception of performance more than you'd guess. If you're the lucky one and actually do this, you will work for the intake, or the numbers will be useless. FWIW, I Really like the G-Tech for parts testing, more than my G2X which is more optimized for track work.

Also note that you want to do all the runs in a row, and not when a weather front moves through. Temp, humidity and barometric pressure will screw with the results, so you have to work fast!

Hope this helps,

Matt

 

Does anyone think that they can execute a test similar to the one outlined by Matt (Dr Obnxs)?

In case anyone is confused (maybe it is me who is mistaken), I do not think the good doctor is offering his services here. He does have a lot of knowlege and experience with this type of testing. You may have seen his work in MC Squared. I am glad that Matt stepped in to help us out, but I do not want a new candidate to be put off by his skills and equiptment.

I do think he has presented a very executable type of test, so now I'm looking for volunteers. This intake is using up too much space in my tiny office and I want to get it out of here!

 

I'm up for the challenge. Like I said before my MCS is an automatic which should give some consistency to the runs. Does anyone know if the Scangauge II will give IAT on the MINI's?

 

ScanGuage II should give IATs. It's from the manifold T-Map sensor... Anyway, I would volenteer, but my car is in the shop (unexpected encounter with a deer), it's far from stock, and I don't need an intake!

But for those that are willing to try, it's a real eye-opener in what it takes to get good data. You'll never view a single dyno plot the same way again.

Matt