Yes.. you can squirt the tires if you want.. (lol).. the idea is to use the Methanol and water as an internal engine cooling and increase the octane to stop detonation and the ECU pulling the timing out and jacking the f/p up.

My system has a pump.. so you could spray the outside of the I/C if you want.. you wont see much gain that way... cool??

Just me...........................

Thumper

 

BUT aren't you spraying after the IC?

 

How does the Alta kit differ from the Snow Performance Mini Cooper S Stage 2 kit? The Snow Performance kit I think is coming in at 430.00

 

I´m using the snow kit for about half a year and I´m fully satisfied.
Even in very hot weather the inlet temps are maximum 40°C the egt drops down by 60°C.
I would´nt spend the additional charge for the ALTA Kit....

 

The kit is the most sophisticated on the market. Are all the bells and whistles necessary? Good question. I would think if you tuned your car for WM, it would proabably make sense.

 

All,

I want to echo the message from Bryan in post #32 and Jeff from Alta throughout this thread. Jeff's numbers are real and easily duplicated with a proper W&M injection system and a custom tune.

WI or W&M injection, post-intercooler, can gain you or lose you power depending on the state of your ECU tune and how much you are injecting. It is a crap shoot, that is dyno proven. To reliably get anything out of a post-intercooler WI or W&M system it is necessary to perform a custom ECU tune, or buy a tune profile that is closely calibrated to your version of the ECU and type of engine modifications. (not easly done)

The simplest and least expensive systems; those without the injection controllers, with a simple boost sensitive switch set to 9 or 10 psi (on a 15% pulley engine), a check valve or solonoid, and a warning light to detect no flow are perfectly adequate for all but the most demanding applications. Flow about 275 ml/min thru your nozzle and your there for MINI. Controllers add additional tuning options and typically include an integrated safety system.

Pre-intercooler WI results in less charge cooling, and a significantly less potential for torque gain and torque loss, but functions as a great insurance policy to reduce the risk of detonation in hot driving environments. I've been using this system for years in a track environment.

I can see those interested in WI could start in a stepwise manner with a pre-intercooler installation; get used to the maintanence, beta test the installation, and enjoy the operational security of reduce detonation risk. Later, if the experiment works out, modify your WI installation to inject post-intercooler as depicted in the Alta posts, and spend the money on a custom tune.

Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

if you had 700.00 would a better intercooler be a better choice over the water/meth injection?

 

Here is my installation, GP intercooler and W&M injection post IC with a 175 ml nozzle.
Quite important is to use a checkvalve cause of the ijection behind the throttle body.
Without the valve in suction condition, the vacuum sucks the water into the engine.

 

MadMick: Nice photos of what looks like the basic system that I described. Did you do any dyno tuning?

jtack: I'll offer you a long response but not 'answer' your question. The reason is that your question is a good question, not a dumb question. By way of background, you'll note that my MINI is a Y2002/2003 transition model, have been following the evolution of MINI engine tuning from almost day #1, and that I have been the full route of aftermarket A2A and A2W intercoolers, ECU tunes and annual dyno checks / tunes. What I will say is based on data.

The world has changed in the last couple of years. It is now possible to custom tune the MINI ECU and adjust both the A/F ratio and the ignition timing independently. Some of the systems are 'bare bones' (Unichip) and others are more fully featured. For WOT engine operation, the end result for each ECU tuning method is exactly the same. They all will potentially deliver the same WOT performance. Period. A lot of the past 'conventional wisdom' on engine mods and their relative value is out the window due to this development. My experience is that the Alta advertising claims about the Unichip tune are identical to my experience. That data is real and repeatable.

What is still evolving in the MINI world is an understanding of the entire WI issue, a tuning approach that has been well developed for other marques and engines. My experience is that an ECU tune plus WI is like adding a second 15% pulley, albeit at a substantially higher price. And, there appear to be cylinder head options and supercharger options that are coming to market that promise an additional significant increment in engine output.

With those thoughts in mind here is my response to your $700 question: $700 won't get you much, but $700 this year and $700 dollars next year and the year following, etc. will get you quite an engine set up. The ECU tuning system, and the WI system are products that will keep giving as you increment up the tune of your engine. Check out Byran's setup referred to in post #32. Bryan has pulled out all the stops on engine mods and this is where he has ended up.

You've already started with an improved exhaust system. I'd continue with the ECU tune system, add a basic WI system like I described and like MadMick posted, save my money for one of those super duper new heads and motor on. The intercooler purchase on its own is a poor investment. A $700 intercooler will ultimately heat soak as bad as the stock unit, possibly not flow as well as the stock unit, and you still haven't taken advantage of the ECU tuning potential that comes with the ECU tune system and the WI system.

Hope these thoughts help,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

thank you very much that is what I wanted to know. I am wondering if it is necessary to go the Alta route at a higher cost or the snow route with the lower cost?

 

see post #32: Alta, Cooling Mist, Devil's Own,................

John Petrich in Seattle

 

Hello, before any thing, small presentation :
minicooper with alta pulley15 % crank +3, collector OBX and one ball, AAC shrick, injectors 380 cc and chip uc, I read your post since the depart I would like to take this kit, on the other hand how make you one for programmed the chip without bought the AFC..
How much can you we win with this configuration?
Forgiveness for my English but I use a translator of language

 

can anyone help paraphrase the question so we can respond to him?

John Petrich in Seattle

 

Here's what I'm getting; He'd like to install a water/meth kit and would like to know how to tune it to optimize his performance without buying a APEXi AFC...he'd also like to know how much hp he's going to gain.

To minicooper31, find someone that uses DimSport to tune the car. That would be the safest bet for the water methanol ... if you really want to tune for that.

 

Thank you,
you succeeded has to translate dimsport? It is what?
Yes how many horses I can win on this mod?
Once again forgiveness for used English, I have an excuse i am francais

 

While tuning your engine for water/meth will get the most out of it - it also means that you must always have water/meth. I have spoken to Sid (MISFITOY) about this (he runs water/meth) but he doesn't have his car specifically tuned for water/meth.

He would be a good person to contact or perhaps he will chime in.

 

minicooper31,

1) water/meth injection + no ECU tune = lose 8-10 ft/lbs torque and 6-10 HP

2) w/m injection + APEXi AFC(air/fuel) ECU tune= gain 6 ft/lbs torque and 6 HP

3) w/m injection + air/fuel and ignition timing ECU tune = 8-10 ft/lbs or more torque and 8-12 HP

water / meth = 50% / 50%

John Petrich in Seattle

 

Bart,

We've both been on NAM forever. Long time no speak. Your comment, while totally accurate, unless more is said, could have an inadvertant chilling effect on someone who is interested in a water/meth injection set up. Let me explain what I mean.

Running out of water/meth isn't the end of the world. Yes, if the MINI engine, stock ECU, is optimized around the injection system, the engine will only function optimally if your injecting. For sure. The stock ECU with a UNICHIP tune, at least, retains the ability to respond to knock signals and adjust timing and other paramaters to keep the engine from self destruction. If you run out of injection fluid, your engine runs at a lower performance level, safely, as long as you don't really really abuse it. I am not sure whether all aftermarket ECU tuning systems for MINIs retain the knock response feature. I know that so many aftermarket ECU tuning systems for other engines and ECU systems, domestic and foreign, do retain this knock function and the knock feature is used as a tuning indicator for dyno testing.

Your caution about injection fluid is especially pertinant for MIN owners who must travel long distances over extended periods of time before they can replenish their injection fluid. I handle my water injection system fluid management needs with a flow indicator, a reservoir level monitor, a 1 gallon reservoir, a 9.5 lb. boost / injection threshold, and a trial and error selection of injection nozzles that give the desired performance with the least water/meth flow. I'm seldom into the boost / injection threshold on the street or highway, and always in that threshold while on the track. This way, I get quite a highway driving range with minimal risk of running out. At the track I just plan ahead and bring extra fluid. Bryan uses an even larger trunk mounted fluid reservoir for that extra margin of capacity in all situations.

Running out of injection fluid is an issue and sounds horrible but it isn't that bad. Water/meth injection is not for everyone for the reason you state, plus the extra expense of the methanol and distilled water, the need for some custom adjustment for optimal engine performance and fluid management, and the burden of regular prevetive maintanence for the system.

Do you have a system or are you thinking of going down that road?

Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

Zackly...

I am running an "UNTUNED" 06 w/CAI- 15% - one ball, and on a 25% w/m mix in 95* fl heat, I made 11 WHP!! I tried more meth and didnt see any more of an increase!! ( Snow performance system) I am sure with "TUNE" the increase can and should be more..... but at least I have a good base line when I do tune! I backed up the w/m test with another base run and duplicated my "OFF" w/m HP and Tq.

When I am just driving around , I can turn the system off, and when I want to power run, a flip to a switch and the system is back on full!! The good thing about having a system like this is the versatility!! run it when you want it!! IF you "TUNE" for just the system.. then it has to be on all the time!! Yes?? The same with Nitrous!! ( my next installed system to be dynoed befor the Dragon!!) and then MY Head... I like the "turn it on when I want" feature!! Yes??

Just me.................................

Thumper

 

John,

Good clarification for its important to give clear picture. I was hoping that Sid would jump in. As I recall he was not a fan of tuning for water/meth.

At present, I have no system but it has peaked my interest for some time now. Living in Florida should maximize the effects of water/meth on a MCS.
Couple of the Florida boys run it and really seem to like it. Thumper being one of them.

 

Thumper460,
Remember you 'forever' and your early adoption of the one-ball exhaust. Congrats on your improvement with your WI system and the 'on-off' feature. Right on. I leave mine 'on' and adjust the 'off-on' with my throttle foot. Ha ha.

Bart,

Your comments on your warm Florida climate and wanting some 'insurance' or extra help managing charge temperatures are consistent with some PM's that I have been receiving from thread readers who live in warm climates.

I think that there is possibly some mis-information and confusion that surrounding the words "water injection" that I'd like to address. As with so many things we do in life; the difference is not what we do, but how we do it, that makes all the difference. I'll explain:

Water injection - lite: What I mean here is limited, simple, basic charge cooling, a complement to or even a subsititute for an intercooler. No adverse effect on engine ECU tuning, small peak torque improvements, and greater performance consistency given changes in ambient air temperatures and engine loads. My experiments with water injection-lite at the track, on the highway, and dyno have shown that the average Joe (like me) can expect peak HP gains of about 10 HP or less, reduced knock on the highway and a detectable resistance to heat soak using a stock intercooler at the track. These results came from injecting about 200 cc/min or less of water ahead, repeat 'ahead', of the intercooler. Injecting this small amount of water after the intercooler didn't change much on the dyno. It did reduce knock on the highway, and I never tested it at the track.

Aggressive water / methanol injection: This is the scenerio that I think is described in the original Alta post and the theme of this thread. I couldn't determine the actual Alta water / meth injection rates from the thread. In this more aggressive injection scheme a fair amount of water, up to 5% or 8% of the engine fuel flow, is injected as close to the intake ports as possible for charge cooling, roughly the same amount of methanol is injected with the water to raise the effective octane of the fuel. These two together, water and methanol, dramatically change the combustion chamber enviroment and make possible tuning to significantly improve engine performance. At the present, I'm injecting at about 275 cc/min, which is likely 1/3 too much. Can tune that later.

Typically, this aggressive injection scheme results in richening of the A/F mixture and a predictable drop in engine torque, assuming no change in ECU tuning. I don't know why the example posted by Alta didn't demonstrate this phenomenon. Tuning the ECU to lean the A/F ratio and to advance the ignition restores the lost torque and then plenty more. The Alta gain numbers are identical with the numbers I have seen locally, except for the lack of torque loss by simply turning the WI on with an untuned ECU. Note that the Alta gain numbers are not peak numbers and aren't the result of creative use of the cursor. The gains illustrated are throughout the useful RPM range and is the type of performance improvement that makes a real difference in actual operation.

In summary:

water injection - lite: might be a very cost effective and more robust subsitute for some of the simpler and questionable aftermarket intercooler upgrades that are available. Could provide insurance and peace of mind in a hot climate. This is the approach I took for 4 years for my track oriented dual purpose MINI, until this Winter when my self centered and shameless pursuit of POWER led me to the next step (below).

aggressive water / methanol injection: as outlined above, if supplanted by a custom ECU tune, is capable of real and significant (8% +) torque and HP improvements compared to no injection. Aggressive fluid injection without the ECU correction could actually cost you performance. Custom ECU tuning for MINI is now available in most parts of the country. Expensive, but, what is the price of real performance improvement?

My thoughts,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

So Petrich would you reccommend putting the jet for a water/meth lite injection only prior to intercooler? Or putting 2 small jets on either side of intercooler? I'm leaning towards a lite system as you described.

Jeremy

 

Hi Jeremy,

This is my recommendation: Water injection - lite: What I mean here is limited, simple, basic charge cooling, a complement to or even a subsititute for an intercooler. No adverse effect on engine ECU tuning, small peak torque improvements, and greater performance consistency given changes in ambient air temperatures and engine loads. My experiments with water injection-lite at the track, on the highway, and dyno have shown that the average Joe (like me) can expect peak HP gains of about 10 HP or less, reduced knock on the highway and a detectable resistance to heat soak using a stock intercooler at the track. These results came from injecting about 200 cc/min or less of water ahead, repeat 'ahead', of the intercooler. Injecting this small amount of water after the intercooler didn't change much on the dyno. It did reduce knock on the highway, and I never tested it at the track.

Remember, I am just an ordinary Joe, who rents time on the dyno.

Hope this helps,
John Petrich in Seattle

 

Ok thanks Petrich. It make sense to mist the boosted hot air zipping out of the blower prior to the IC.

And when do you have pinging on the highway? 6 gear @ 3K-matting the throttle?

Jeremy

 

Jeremy,

Your yella MINI looks a lot like mine, except that you've done a lot of aftermarket development that I haven't. Keep up the good work.

Yes, can get 6th gear pinging at 3K going up a hill on a very hot day in Seattle, and didn't have to matt the throttle, either. There is a quiet stretch of pavement where I can actually hear the pinging, if I don't have my water injection - lite setup 'on'.

BTW: have installed a used Apexi AFC tuner that I use to data log my knock signal. So I don't have to listen quite so hard. Little knock activity with my aggressive water/meth injection system.

Regards,
John Petrich in cool, cool Seattle