FWIW the engine used for the first generation BMW Mini has to be one of the shortest engines production runs for any OEM. The technology has not changed so drasticly that the merit of the present run would need to be replaced with such a change. We're not talking computer chips here. Not to say the new engine isn't better & has more potential but the real potential of the present motor has not been fully exploited. After all Chevy still uses push rods.
That said, it makes you wonder what the long term, BMW, strategies are for the Mini. Change is good in small amounts. In this case there are very few interchangeable parts with the 02 - 06 models. It would be nice had they taken the road of the 911 & the original Austin Mini. Yes, the 2 models are similar in looks & the new car is, most likely, a better car but somehow the direction is a little off. Which brings back "mod friendly" 2007 & beyond.
The turbo car is & will be a killer mod car. There is more after market turbo than there ever was for SC. If the tuner market can build a piggy for the ECU that can eliminate the engine management function & leave the ODB alone for the rest..... I think most can see where that can go.... It will come.

Thoughts?

 

I remmeber reading in a magazine back when the R53 was new that tuners were all excited to break the 200hp mark. Now they are pushing 300hp with out a problem. The aftermarket is full of talented people give them time and demand and they can do anything.

 

The current engine is made by a partnership that includes DCX (Mercedes). There was no way that BMW would continue using that source. The new engine partnership with Puegot resolves that issue for BMW. I know you probably knew all that, but I thought I'd blurt it out anyway!

 

/\ exactly. the engine isn't cancelled, just used elsewhere

 

Judging from the Milltek claims that their new dp + exhaust for the R56 will get you 30hp at the crank , I think we're off to a good start.

If that's just the tip of the iceberg for the R56, things should be looking pretty good mod wise.

 

I guess you dont read OT, huh

Huh? 02 - 06 ... five year run?

1984 - 1989 Toyota MR2 with SC beginning in 1988
1990 - Toyota MR2 Turbo

I had heard MINI wanted to get the car to market as fast as possible and supercharging was the quick, easy way to do it. They just followed Toyotas path.

 

Bore out the engine? Port and Polish? Good googly moogly, you guys are finally talking my language! In the 'good ol days' (pre-uh, eighty-something) we saw good HP gains from Holley four barrel carbs (thats carburator, not CARB, for you Calis), spacers, boring out the cylinders, oversized pistons, new cams, port and polish, maybe oversize the exhaust valves, etc., etc. Great fun for many hours, in a garage getting dirty .

The biggest problem I see, from a Non-EE standpoint, is that unlike the cars of yesteryear, the ECU is the biggest hinderence, and the biggest gain potential. Would I like to see a DIY on boring out the cylinders and matching some new oversized pistons? SURE!!! I still have my Hone and Glaze-Breaker stones on my drill setup, and my snap gages and inside mics...

The fact is, that while Classic Minis Motorers happily call their engines 1275cc buzz bombs and work to squeeze more power the old fashioned way, nothing (not even changing your 1598cc set up to a 1798cc or 1998cc) will do you squat until the ECU is cracked. From what I can gather from reading the good 'Dr' in MC2 is that the best you'll get for your trouble is the SESL or CEL. :impatient

 

62Lincoln, yes I knew it was comming. On the other side of the coin, the availability for aftermarket development, cam billets, blocks, heads, ect. may be more easily atained at lower cost. As it is just about everything is quite $$$$ for the Mini in terms of mods.

QandElf, I'm with you, HP the old was very, very, rewarding.

Chows4us "They just followed Toyotas path." Like i said it would have been nice had they taken the 911 road. I expect more from the "ultimate driving experience" company.

 

Not going to happen. 911 road is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Small power gains ... ignore what the rest of the car world does, and still underpowered in comparison to some others ... but the best around.

Now BMW might do that for say a M6 at $100K but do you really believe than can invest that into a $23K, entry level car? I seriously do not believe BMW could or would ever invest in such an evolutionary approach. This fits perfectly with what I was told. Throw a supercharger on an established engine. Get some quick power ... then worry about doing turbo with all the new goodies.

BTW, Toyota ended the MR2 Turbo run because sales fell below 50K cars/year. Just not worth selling them. MINI is in a better position because they have sold 1,000,000 worldwide in 5 years.

 

What does an MR2 have to do with a Mini?

Don't know what's so funny. I had 4 911s. There were many engine changes, 2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.7, 3.0, 3.2, all of which you could install in model years 68 thru 83 without much, if any, fab work. You're not going to do that with a Mini. 5 years is a short run no mater how you cut it.

Entry level? You gan get a Toyota for 10k less than the cost of a Mini. 23K for a base model is serious money. I'm not laughing. Mine cost 25K with options. Don't get me wrong, this car will be around my garage a long time. But - If BMW only wants to put time & effort into, only, the high end market, as you say, fine. Why waste any time on an entry level car at all? Is the money so good they can't pass it up? Rush to market? I would hope not. They did what they thought was in the best interest of the company & it was a success. That does not mean that the road they took was the right road. All of which leads to my original question,

Thoughts?

 

You heard wrong man. BMW/Rover took their time with that project. They didnt take any shortcuts. They wanted the result PERFECT. (And it was).

They used supercharger because it was.... how u say, "Old School". Just like the car.

 

You wrote: the first generation BMW Mini has to be one of the shortest engines production runs for any OEM.

My response was "here is another example" 5 year run. Start supercharged ... ended turbocharged.

I was laughing at trying to compare a 911 progression with a MINI. Today, at least, HP gains between cycles are relatively small. Lots of whining for more power. Instead, they go there own way. And today you can still drop a 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, or 3.8L in about anybody. I see the ads all the time. All it takes is $$$.

Yes, IMO, its definitely entry level. This has been discussed before. Average car sold in the US in 2005 was $28K. MCS in 2005? $21K. You can always add options to any car. Some ppl posted they bought $50K MINIs Lots of luck trying to sell those. Just look at the marketing ... young, upbeat ... targeting right at college grads, early twenties ... the fact that older ppl ... like me, have bought them, doesn't mean the targeting is off base. Take a look at the Winding Road article. Target is young singles, newlyweds without kids, or older folks wanted an extra car for runabouts around time. This is TOO ... this masses ... not necessarily the "enthusiasts" who want to race, and that is, I believe, a small percentages of the 150K cars sold in the US. So yes, I believe MINI markets and intends to sell to younger buyers. Just look at all the posts of people saying their is the first car they ever bought new. BTW, there is nothing wrong with that. It a defined segment of the market.

I can only relate what a tuner told me about the 2002 entrance. Simply they wanted to get the car to market. The "cheap" way was throw a supercharger on the car which has been done since the 50s or earlier (dunno). More complex to go turbo. Whether this is true or false, I dunno but its makes sense.

Why waste any time on an entry level car at all?

Well Toyota sells Lexus, Toyota, and Scion. Why sell Scions?

As to your original question. I think your talking about interchangeability of parts, like those old 911s?

Well, nothing has changed there, 60% of all Porshe parts are interchangeable right up and down their sports car lines ... For example, when you look at the PCM in a base Boxster on a TT, its the exact same unit (and the SUV as well). There is a reason they are a very profitable company today.

Why didnt MINI do that? This goes back to my How much money do you think Porsche has sunk into engineering, up and down the lines to ensure their current position and over how many years? Do you think BMW is going to do that with their "entry" level car line? Same as Toyota ... would they do that for Scion? They might within the Lexus line of cars but where is the profit in Scions?

 

What Toyota does has nothing to do with BMW.

The examples you have are 16+ years ago.... And some of those engines have major components that are interchangeable.....

The only thing BMW & Toyota have in common are entry level first efforts.

And I do own a Scion. The power plant is a proven eveloution of past development, their own development.

And yes I'd rather sell 1 Bentley than a lot full Scions, so where is the profit? More people can afford a Scion, that's where the profit is. Smaller for sure, but there none the less.

Porsche has always had a high end engine with very high performance. No reason to fix something that aint broke. The first 930 was one of the 5 fastest production cars in the world, they never looked back. I owned a 74 Carrera that was quite a bit quicker than a 308 for a lot less money. All of which has nothing to do with Mini.

The point of my original post was to discover what others thought about the direction the Mini is going. Is it good, bad, odd, too much??? Or .......

Still the new generation of turbo cars will be the tuners dream. Building a serious blower engine, anything with 10# or more boost, has many internal & exterior issues that need to be addressed, trust me on this, I'v built a few & blown up a couple ( the first was a Judson on a 998 Austin motor ). On the other hand the turbo motors were far easier & more reliable in terms of adding extra strength to internal & exterior components, in other words I could build an extra stock lower end, built a few & didn't blow any up, spun some bearings but no big holes in the big heavy thing the crank is in. Bottom line BMW had to build a spec blower motor that could stand up on the street with a small engine and a very small mouse at that. No easy feat & not cheap.

 

the engine had a year head start in Europe, and will still be used in the convertable for a couple of years. Short lived? Maybe, but then again, a lot of the partnerships that looked good when it was designed aren't looking so good now.

Matt

 

Short lived? In terms of production, Yes. There are many long term philosophies that any manufacturer would employ to build their customer base. "Ultimate Driving Machine" is 1 of them. I neither agree or disagree with the road the Mini has taken. I'm still interested in what the long term car guy thinks.

There have many special builds that have had short runs, the Ford SHO with its Yahama V6 comes to mind. When these cars were sold it was known that the Yahama would not be a part of a long term commitment from Ford but a part of SVO short term. The Shogun Festiva was another short term build. Most car guys liked these cars but did not buy them for many reasons. The biggest reason was time of development. The cars were also targeted to a factory hot rod market. These 2 builds made it clear that Ford was a piece of the high performance market at a reasonable cost to the consumer. I would ask the same question as to the direction they went.

Guess we need to see how things shake out with Puegot.......

 

And somehow, so much cheaper. As the Shade-tree style of weekend mechanic, I've been happy to take a little longer to make/put together something myself. But everything is made 10x harder because you can't plug in "2004 MINI Cooper S" under universal Exhaust parts, etc., etc. and get back anything other than Pre-fab SS 304 Name Brands costing $450+, up to $1200. Which is why I've gone the 'One-Ball' route for now. And god forbid an aftermarket group who sells a $9 Thermostat for $45+ would let it slip what model they use (BTW, NAPA sells a 192F, but they don't know what a 180F version might be).

Of course, I've been told over and over that unless I go 'all one route' (ie- ALL M7, or ALL DINAN, or ALL MINI Madness) my gains will be useless. Maybe I should change MINIQue's name to "Bastard Bulldog"...

Anyway, to turn this back toward the topic at hand, the ECU will still hold the key to the power. There will be CAI's (I've heard one suggestion of a Ram from the otherwise useless Scoop into a K&N Oval that's fit into the Fresh Air Intake Plenum), there will be bigger/better IC's, and there will be new/improved Aero-Kits. There will probably even be lightened Crank Pulleys (CravenSpeed already makes ones for Turbo VW's and Subarus) and lighter weight external componants. They will have new thermostats, new cooling hoses, and I'm sure, Oil Coolers, Transmission Coolers, Oil Pans Baffled, etc., etc. There will probably be an 'Improved Flow' Rebuilt OEM Turbo Kit about 30 seconds after the parts are first released.

STILL got to crack the ECU to "find real performance gains"...

 

I know there have to be members of NAM that have worked on 1.6L (or less) N/A motors that put down close to 175hp in near stock form. I can name three off the top of my head. So when they say things like "optimized for performance" I always have to chuckle.

I don't know any aftermarket turbo kit at 11.5psi on a 1.6L DOHC that isn't at 200hp+, and sadly in this second offereing were still stuck with a sub-200 number. I can only imagine that the modability of this engine will be much better than the last engine we had (again...12psi supercharged making 160hp!! ). Bigger turbo = bigger numbers, and that is going to be the driving force behind the new engine. There are a TON of 1.6L turboed engines out there that are easially putting down 300+ without a hiccup...I'm sure the mini will be falling into that category soon.