Drivetrain Ultrik vs Schrick?
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
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From: out and aboot
i think you have misunderstood me...
my comment where i quoted it was in regards to the cosworth cam and what it might produce as far as power... i then said i hope there cam (cosworths) is better than there cylinder head (cosworth)
I have no idea about manias head... i think they post there flow numbers on there website. i am too lazy to look right now.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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i think you have misunderstood me...
my comment where i quoted it was in regards to the cosworth cam and what it might produce as far as power... i then said i hope there cam (cosworths) is better than there cylinder head (cosworth)
I have no idea about manias head... i think they post there flow numbers on there website. i am too lazy to look right now.
my comment where i quoted it was in regards to the cosworth cam and what it might produce as far as power... i then said i hope there cam (cosworths) is better than there cylinder head (cosworth)
I have no idea about manias head... i think they post there flow numbers on there website. i am too lazy to look right now.
I am not anti MM.... far from it, i don't know them.... my concern is about shops that buy products from 3rd parties and slap their names on them without real regard for quality .... don't get me wrong their are MANY fine shops that do tis kind of work conscientiously but I have seen some pretty crappy stuff as well...... my concern was in this regard..... i looked at the MM site and was pretty impressed..... a phone call with a few questions would probably satisfy me...... a simple warranty "if this part fails and takes out your engine we will fix it" would be nice.....
funny, how no one picked up on getting the car to idle with very aggresive cams...... how much more aggressive can you go without these kind of issues.....
also, I see a lot of you tuning cars for drag racing..... that is 180 from what I am looking for..... I want a car that modulates power well in and out of the turns......at 4-6k rpm and then feels strong accellerating on the straights..... not a car that has one mode all power from 6k and up with little below....."not that there is anything wrong with that"
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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flow bench numbers by someone other than me...
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...PROD&ProdID=64
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...PROD&ProdID=64
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
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From: out and aboot
I guess i just expected more flow and inovation from the cosworth name. But its not like there formula one team is the one who is porting the heads!
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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That is very true. but it is realitivly easy to get the same results that WMS has for flow numbers. Just about anyone should beable to do that with a quality port job.
I guess i just expected more flow and inovation from the cosworth name. But its not like there formula one team is the one who is porting the heads!
I guess i just expected more flow and inovation from the cosworth name. But its not like there formula one team is the one who is porting the heads!
why would the people at Cosworth jeopordize their rep for a few bucks made in the Mini market... also Jim's car runs great
this gets into "the engine as system" discussion
Banned
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 133
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Bob,
What you are NOT comparing is the baseline numbers of the stock head. WMS seems to have a much higher base numbers for the stock head. In this case try looking for the deltas.
Bill
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
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From: out and aboot
I hope this makes sense i am doing a hundred things at once right now
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
I have no idea which part of Cosworth is doing the work but one would hope to protect the "brand" there would be a level of quality etc comensurate with the name/price..... cost/benefit ratios.....
why would the people at Cosworth jeopordize their rep for a few bucks made in the Mini market... also Jim's car runs great
this gets into "the engine as system" discussion
why would the people at Cosworth jeopordize their rep for a few bucks made in the Mini market... also Jim's car runs great
this gets into "the engine as system" discussion
I would definetly put more weight into the engine as a system theory if cosworth devoloped an intake manifold and exhaust mainfold as these are probably the most important parts of the equation when starting from the cylinder head.
also, im sure Jims car runs great. It isn't a question of how well it runs but how much power it makes vs how much it could make. I guess i just had higher expectations from a name like cosworth
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Camel humps had 64cc chambers too. Worked well with the small valves. Kept velocities up nicely but wheezed out over 5500. Awesome for low torque with a well done cam.
This is the deal I'd like to see for the MINI.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
The gas situation here can be quite dangerous to highly tuned cars. I hate to say it but the 10% E has improved things especialy for winter gas, still need the dry gas. I'm a little old for street fighting but I still love it - you need good gas. Last Feb ( pre 10% ) I got some bad gas & the car went into limp mode on the highway. It recovered quickly but this was on the Pen Turnpike with heavy traffic. Not good.
Schrick has been around a long time. The first time I saw 1 was over 20 years ago. I'm sure most people never heard of Racer Brown either but they were 1 of the first to produce a roller cam. The point is that all these other cam builders should not need to defend their products, nor should the vendor that is marketing them. If there is some science that says stay away great.Lets hear it.
As you point out some of the people on this board have no exposer to Schrick or for that matter any of the products available. Sharing the knowledge is what this board is what it's all about. Knowledge speaks, wisdom listens....
Bottom line: IMHO I don't think it's fair to judge a product without having it in hand.
There use to be a saying, "if you want to go fast for low bucks, go Chevy". If you want to really want to go fast go Porsche, trust me on this 1 I had 4 of them.
Schrick has been around a long time. The first time I saw 1 was over 20 years ago. I'm sure most people never heard of Racer Brown either but they were 1 of the first to produce a roller cam. The point is that all these other cam builders should not need to defend their products, nor should the vendor that is marketing them. If there is some science that says stay away great.Lets hear it.
As you point out some of the people on this board have no exposer to Schrick or for that matter any of the products available. Sharing the knowledge is what this board is what it's all about. Knowledge speaks, wisdom listens....
Bottom line: IMHO I don't think it's fair to judge a product without having it in hand.
There use to be a saying, "if you want to go fast for low bucks, go Chevy". If you want to really want to go fast go Porsche, trust me on this 1 I had 4 of them.
I had to save about 6 months to buy one.
Banned
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 133
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if your base number is higher than that means that your head had less "extra casting on it" making it even more difficult to acheive a higher delta. Deltas should not be used when comparing cylinder heads. Because there is a HUGE vairiance in the factory head, but after porting the head the after number should be very very close.
I hope this makes sense i am doing a hundred things at once right now
I hope this makes sense i am doing a hundred things at once right now
I think it has to do with differences in the flow bench as a factory head would not be 10 cfm off. I have talked to the actual porter and he said 10 thousandths differences are normal in core shift. I doubt that adds up to 10 cfm but if you care to prove otherwise I am sure listening.
Bill
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
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From: Northampton MA
Did you buy the roller? I did. I think it was awsome...... w/ 3 duce setup & Headman headers in a double nickle coupe......
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
I think it has to do with differences in the flow bench as a factory head would not be 10 cfm off. I have talked to the actual porter and he said 10 thousandths differences are normal in core shift. I doubt that adds up to 10 cfm but if you care to prove otherwise I am sure listening.
Bill
Bill
Also, it depends on what kind of flow bench you are using 24 or 26 inches of water for measurement... you can yeild higher results if you don't use the same method of measurement
Banned
Joined: Oct 2006
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Well in my experiance porting them... there are actually at least two differnt kinds of castings for MINI heads. Don't know if its a supplier issue or if it is a production date split... but there is a differnce. And yes... some heads have a little extra matterial compared to others... at least i have found this.
Also, it depends on what kind of flow bench you are using 24 or 26 inches of water for measurement... you can yeild higher results if you don't use the same method of measurement
Also, it depends on what kind of flow bench you are using 24 or 26 inches of water for measurement... you can yeild higher results if you don't use the same method of measurement
Every head porter that I know except Cosworth uses 28" as their standard setting. I am not sure how many heads you have personally ported or if you checked every head before you did , as it really doesn't matter. This thread is about camshafts and we have gotten completely off target.
Bill
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
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From: out and aboot
every head is flow benched before and after. And we have done probably 10 heads or so MINI heads and countless other heads for other makes and models
and yes this is about cams. we should stick to cams
and yes this is about cams. we should stick to cams
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
Cam
http://www.camtechniques.com/Pages/term.html Thought that people could use this. When using terms like roll out, ramp speed, lobe center, etc. people that don't know could understant what these terms mean.
Spyder there is room for a more agressive cam for the Mini that will idle smoothly. There is also more power to be had with youy Schrik. The bottleneck is the software. This would also be true with another cam of like grind or more agressive. The Unichip may be a big benny for this application since you can dyno tune it.
A stand alone would be the answer but I believe Isellem pointed out that most emission inspections need the OE port to check codes.
By the way all the off topic info is all good.
Spyder there is room for a more agressive cam for the Mini that will idle smoothly. There is also more power to be had with youy Schrik. The bottleneck is the software. This would also be true with another cam of like grind or more agressive. The Unichip may be a big benny for this application since you can dyno tune it.
A stand alone would be the answer but I believe Isellem pointed out that most emission inspections need the OE port to check codes.
By the way all the off topic info is all good.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
http://www.camtechniques.com/Pages/term.html Thought that people could use this. When using terms like roll out, ramp speed, lobe center, etc. people that don't know could understant what these terms mean.
Spyder there is room for a more agressive cam for the Mini that will idle smoothly. There is also more power to be had with youy Schrik. The bottleneck is the software. This would also be true with another cam of like grind or more agressive. The Unichip may be a big benny for this application since you can dyno tune it.
A stand alone would be the answer but I believe Isellem pointed out that most emission inspections need the OE port to check codes.
By the way all the off topic info is all good.
Spyder there is room for a more agressive cam for the Mini that will idle smoothly. There is also more power to be had with youy Schrik. The bottleneck is the software. This would also be true with another cam of like grind or more agressive. The Unichip may be a big benny for this application since you can dyno tune it.
A stand alone would be the answer but I believe Isellem pointed out that most emission inspections need the OE port to check codes.
By the way all the off topic info is all good.
I am thinking more for people who are considering this move..... the Schrick seems fine.... the Ultrick may be as well....
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
I haven't but SRTech did. I'm sure if you PM him he will get back to you.
I have installed about 10 or so schrick cams in heads... basically i just want to see if anyone else is uneasy about running a more agressive cam because when you install a schrick cam you have to "pinch" the spark plug tubes in order to allow clearance for the cam. I just wonder how much more agressive we can actually go. I forgot how much room there is once you pinch these. I can't recall whether or not there is enough room for a more agressive cam.
i should have posted in my last post... dang
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 779
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Some cam specs from Catcams: (I just hope the DOHC is a mistake... )
Sorry about the format, but that's the only way it would paste:
engine layout
More are available at jrponline.com, but they appear to be erroneous.
)Sorry about the format, but that's the only way it would paste:
manufacturer
bmw
cam layout
DOHC
cam layout
DOHC
engine layout
4cyl - L
follower type
RPRH
valves [in/ex]
4v [2/2]
rotation
cw
follower type
RPRH
valves [in/ex]
4v [2/2]
rotation
cw
car model
capacity
engine code
from
until
Mini
1600cc
engine code
from
until
Mini
1600cc
partnr.
duration
duration
maximum lift
lift at TDC
parts
application
[data link]
[0.1mm+cl]
[1.0mm+cl]
[cl=0]
[cl=0]
[-]
(TURBO)
duration
maximum lift
lift at TDC
parts
application
[data link]
[0.1mm+cl]
[1.0mm+cl]
[cl=0]
[cl=0]
[-]
(TURBO)
More are available at jrponline.com, but they appear to be erroneous.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
I have installed about 10 or so schrick cams in heads... basically i just want to see if anyone else is uneasy about running a more agressive cam because when you install a schrick cam you have to "pinch" the spark plug tubes in order to allow clearance for the cam. I just wonder how much more agressive we can actually go. I forgot how much room there is once you pinch these. I can't recall whether or not there is enough room for a more agressive cam.
i should have posted in my last post... dang
i should have posted in my last post... dang
If you want to race, this is not the cam for you.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
I've installed more than a dozen Schrick cams this year; denting the tube is no big deal but it should be unnecessary for an aggressive cam. The 9mm lift of the exhaust lobe does not make for an aggressive cam as there are a few much more important aspects of a cam that determines its characteristics. As I posted before, this cam is a mild street cam; offering no where near the performance of a race cam.
If you want to race, this is not the cam for you.
If you want to race, this is not the cam for you.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
I've installed more than a dozen Schrick cams this year; denting the tube is no big deal but it should be unnecessary for an aggressive cam. The 9mm lift of the exhaust lobe does not make for an aggressive cam as there are a few much more important aspects of a cam that determines its characteristics. As I posted before, this cam is a mild street cam; offering no where near the performance of a race cam.
If you want to race, this is not the cam for you.
If you want to race, this is not the cam for you.