I'd like comments about the Alta v2 Interecooler from those of you who have had one for a couple of months...I'm curious....
Thanks,
Mike

 

I think we may have to wait a month or two, seeing as it only became avaliable a week or so ago. I too am curious though.

Nik

 

I'm guessing that it will be similar to the M7 DFIC. I WANT TO KNOW and see the difference in Temp. numbers between the 2.......

SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!
Who will step up 1st?

 

I wonder if it works in the MCSa ??????

 

Curiously, in "street" driving there is not much difference from oem and many of the after market ic's when it comes to temp reduction. This seems to be counter intuitive but numbers don't lie. I've used a scangauge II to compare oem and a few aftermarket ic's. The oem ic is quiet efficient in this area. They all seemed to range 4-12 degrees above ambient temp depending on driving conditions & engine load. The biggest diff I've found was how well/or not they flowed. Some have actually gained back nearly a lb of boost that is lost with the oem, with one notable exception.

 

I wonder the same since the previous one didn't. But for $700 its too much money to gamble with to test a fitting. Although I might just call and ask

 

Unfortunately, someone will have to drill and tap the Alta to get temp readings. Get a brand new $700 IC and have to take it to a drill press before you can measure what it's doing.

 

Since you have tested a couple ICs - could you post your data findings.

 

I noticed the V2 shows some volume measurements etc does the DFIC have that info anywhere? It would be nice to compare the two

Here's the Alta V2:

Core Construction

Our intercooler is constructed using a 3/8" Bar and Plate core. This refers to the size of the fins and the bars both being 3/8" tall. This size compared to 1/4" Bar and Plate, gives both the charge air and the ambient air a less restrictive path. Bar and Plate cores are the most durable intercooler design on the market.

Core dimensions
Dimensions of OEM core 128cu-in
Dimensions of Version 2.0 core 275cu-in
Results ALTA is 214% bigger than OEM
The benefit is more capacity for ambient cooling and charge cooling

Internal Charge Air Entry

Internal entry of charge air of OEM 4.74sq-in
Internal entry of charge air of Version 2.0 8.51sq-in
Results 179% bigger than OEM
The benefit is freer flowing path for the charge air give you less pressure drop

Internal Charge Air Volume

Internal entry of charge air of OEM 48.6cu-in
Internal entry of charge air of Version 2.0 106.3cu-in
Results 218% bigger than OEM
The benefit is larger volume for charge air to interact with cooling fins

External Cooling Capacity
External cooling fin capacity of ambient air of OEM 51.2cu-in
External cooling fin capacity of ambient air of Version 2.0 145.5cu-in
Results 284% bigger than OEM
The benefit is larger volume for ambient air to interact with cooling fins. more ambient cooling capacity than OEM.

Water Spray

Included with your intercooler is a dual stream, 180º water spray jet for extra cooling in extremely hot conditions. Spraying two streams of water in 180º fan patterns will douse every inch of you intercooler cooling through out the entire intercooler core. As air passes through the intercooler the evaporating water continuously cools throughout the entire length of the intercooler

 

Ovrezee, Nice post. And Thank you.

There is not as much info as you have laid out in your post for the M7 DFIC. If there is, such, I have not been able to find it. The M7 is a quality piece for sure but Alta has my attention.

 

I'm sure that the 2 vendors mentioned have read this thread & I'm still waiting for real numbers?

 

There are real numbers on the DFIC. The problem is that no one believes them! I posted TE stats for my DFIC last week (88%) and due to the SC-out temperatures being "too high" no one believes the TE estimate. But the post-SC temps are actually within possible values, even though others have measured lower temps. There is a lot of variance in post-SC temps, depending on when the temps are measured, and other conditions.
Anyway, I'm reticent to post data on NAM now, because I don't know what "numbers" people will believe.
You may be waiting for data for quite a while!

 

There is a little theory named after a Mr. Bernoulli that states, let me para-phrase a bit, Pressure = volume/temperature

see here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html

Just some food for thought.

 

More, I know that there is more out there

 

It's not that the posted numbers are not believable, they are. It's the comparisons that are being made. TE is all fine and well but at what cost to boost? We know that air temps above 180f are not desireable post IC ( heat soak ). The IC could be 90%, but for how long & when? Rrecovery rate from heat soak?

Back in the days Roush was running the XR4TI, IMSA, we're talking turbo, there was much R&D relating to the IC they would use. A front mount was out of the question, no room & what room there was was not shunt proof. A huge top mount was used, high flow, fin inner core with low density exterior. The idea was to collect as much air as possible with the exterior design for cooling & low if any loss of boost from the core. They were huge but the worked. The point is, not you, me or anyone I know can produce the kind information that most of us want without a ton of equipment, lots of people, a big sponsor...........

The time spent on your scoop has benifet for all of us with a DFIC or anything else for that mater. As most can see, in this case, more is better. IMHO, I find more value in numbers that benifit all of the underhood.

There will be many that will compare, but untill all of the ICs made for the Mini are tested under the criteria laid out for the desired application, it's a pick what you like.

 

IMO, if I had to select one now, I would pick the DFIC over the Alta for the same reason I would select a 2006 MINI over a 2002. M7 keeps improving the DFIC as user data becomes available while the Alta "may" have not had the bugs worked out.

 

Just in case there may be a misunderstanding, at least for me.

My questioning of your temps and Sid's for that matter are really about why they are higher. I need to resolve this and here's why:
I want to install the gauge that you and Sid run but if there are issues I won't. The other side is of course yours may be right and mine are off.
If yours read consistently higher that's fine. That doesn't really affect final TE calculations all that much. So it's 3-5% no big deal really in the grand scheme of things.
My setup is bulky and a bit ugly but if it's more accurate I'll stick with it. The probes are 4" long, 1/8th thin and the entire length is exposed to the center of air flow and is thermally isolated by entering through the IC boot. Does the boot get hot? Yes but nothing like the IC metal.

So for me, I believe your numbers. Why wouldn't I? It's the unresolved differences I'm trying to justify. The VGS question has entered into this as well which muddies things a bit too. Just for grins sake let's say your temp are consistently 20º higher. Fine by me. It appears your cruise temp dropped ~10% by removing the VGS. That's significant. Well worth looking into. What puzzles me though is that even considering that theoretical 20º difference your temps where still quite a bit higher than mine.
We have 4 straight days of low 60ºs coming so I'm putting my OEM boots and probes back in tomorrow(today is my daughters birthday) and doing some VGS/ non VGS comparisons. If I'm consistently 10% cooler the VGS goes.
I really want to see how this affects boost during auto-x but won't know until next Spring.

Still a great thread

 

I have spent much of my life doing empirical research, albeit in the social science of economics. Oddly the research I've done over the last 15 years has been in experimental economics (hard to believe, but the field won a Nobel Laureate in 2002--Vernon Smith). I am very concerned about proper method, controls and replication. It's the replication aspect that seems to be the problem here. Like economic data, MINI data is not collected under controlled circumstances--there are so many variables to name, let alone control or account for. Then there's the instrument and calibration. But finally we have the nature of the process being measured--the variance appears to be very high. I went back yesterday and mounted the probes with rubber gaskets on either side of the IC body--the only transmission will occur via radiation from the IC body to the SS probe. I have a tech support call in next week with the manufacturer of the gauge and kit (the probes are sourced from another manufacturer but calibrated by Davtron) to find out more information about sensitivity and calibration. I'm trying to achieve some level of "believability" in my measurements. But then, I too share obehave's concern to explain the differences between my temp readings and other's. inimmini has posted some temps that appear to be extremely low, both IC-in and IC-out, with an ambient temperature near 70F. Given how hard I've tried to get cool air into the engine, I'm surprised and disappointed that the measured temps both IC-in and IC-out are so high! There has to be an explanation, but it alludes me at present.
Thanks to all of you sharing this thread for the ideas.

 

Larry,

When have intercoolers had "bugs" that need to be worked out. Either they work or they don't. People tend to confuse looks with performance. There is no imperical proof that either of these two intercoolers work as advertised.

Bill

 

Since I don't know anything about those probes I'll ask an uninformed question.
Where is the pickup point? Top sides, etc. Is that whole mass the probe or is there just a small thermocouple on the top?
Ok....that's 2 questions

What I'm getting at is maybe there is a more ideal placement like facing into the incoming airstream.
This may be nonsense. What the heck. Better to look dumb for a moment than stay dumb forever

 

A good question, and one designed to eleviate any dumb-state quickly! The probes are used in aeronautical applications, but are not wing-shaped so perhaps for internal rather than external use. The reading is taken from the circular top not the shaft, so I was told by the rep. I spoke to. This may help with the thermal transfer from the IC body also.
cheers,

 

Which part of the advertisement? The marketing and promotional text is a little hyperbolic, I'll agree. But there does appear to be some evidence of higher TEs for the DFIC than for the vertical flow ICs. Of course, there's pressure drop to consider as well which appears to be higher with the DFIC and the prototype Alta that Dr. O (Matt) tested.
In the end, I don't know. I do know that all the mods I'm trying will hold pressure drop constant, and hopefully increase TE, and ultimately increase the O2 charge to the cylinders.

 

Hince the name prototype. Alta has used the information gathered and changed a few things around to lessen pressure drop. To me the DFIC could benefit from a smoother transition from the end tanks to the intercooler core.

 

And the Alta product has been under "development" for a much longer period of time that the M7 product. Not claiming that it is better, just stating that Alta had it on the "bench" for a longer period.

 

there's tons of data, if you care to look for it. But it's not conclusive, and it's use case sensitive. There is no answer to any of these questions that is true for all ways the cars are used.

But if you really want some good comparisons, you have to step up and make them yourself. Here's why...

1) If a company that makes a product buys the competition and the new one tests better, no one will believe it.

2) If a companys new product tests worse, you'll never see the numbers.

3) For a guy like me to do all that testing, both vendors have to give me the parts at close to the same time, so the car will be in the same state. While I did test the prototype for the Alta and a DFIC, the car was in very different states, so I couldn't really compare the two "apples to apples" so to speak.

4) For me to force the timing, I'd have to buy the parts, sorry, I'm not made of that type of money.

5) You're left with the aggregate of people testing what they have with the tools that are available, using the owners prefered techniques. While this does generate a lot of data, it's hard to compare. Lots here like to test steady state cruising, I prefere WOT at red-line in 2nd....


So, to be blunt, quit bitching, accept what data you get for what you pay for it (nothing), or step up, buy the diagnostics and parts, and do it yourself.

Matt