Exactly

This was a thread that asked for comments about the Alta. Somewhere it got to DFIC. I have neither & if I were to give numbers from today, 29f this morning 113f outlet & 30.3f IAT, it would be worthless to anyone that does not live here, unless the same or similar type of IC, or anything other than OE, is being used on their engine.
The IC is a point on contention and it always goes back to air & how to control it. Who has the best? Who knows.
To be fair to all the vendors, all the aftermarket ICs have some merit, just some more than others. The OE unit is tough to beat. The IC I have works well for me ( best of 3 that have been used ) & realy, bottom line, that's all that realy counts.

 

I believe that most people upgrading intercoolers are running higher boost pressures. And are you simply comparing iat's for your descision? I personally dynoed tested the classic Alta top mount. It made more hp than stock. Look up the thread 19+4% crank. The butt dyno combined with intake temps don't tell the whole story.

 

The V1 Alta dropped hp on my car with 100 octane. Gained a few HP on my car with 91 CA gas. The flow through prototype gave me a bunch of HP with 100 octane, but much less with 91 octane. YMMV This was G-Tech testing in 2nd gear.

Matt

FWIW, 40-60 times were the same....

 

Hmm... Wish you had knock sensor info.

 

That's the culprit. But the pressure drop on the V1 Alta made it more immune to the effect, so it had less retard on 91 than the flow through prototype, that had much higher manifold pressures.

This is just an illustration of what a pain it is to quantify IC behaviour. Here's another example. Imagine an IC with a single soda straw inner flow path and REAL BIG heat sinks for cooling. TEs would be great, wouldn't make power worth squat!

Matt

 

No not for me. I'm not running an OE unit if that's what you refer to......

Don't realy understand your comment but I agree with it, I think.....

1 of the 3 ICs I had was an Alta clasic top mount. All 3 ICs were tested on a flow bench. Boost is an important part of the final result, more than most think.

I believe that to take advantage of added boost, you need a larger, less restricted IC ( internal core ) with the best air managment possible( exterior ). This may not mean that it has the best TE, but if the IAT is more stable over a greater range of criteria ( than OE ), it's more better.

Now if someone would chime that has a V2 Alta & would comment on like or dislike............

 

We know that no 2 tests will ever be the same and that is okay. I would like to see numbers from all of the aftermarket ICs. Test it against your OEM IC and then post the differences.

I can think of a few situations to test them.....
1. Stop & Go
2. Normal 55-65 Hwy
3. WOT from 2nd Gear (open for suggestions)
4. From the Track! (IF and when you are able)
(at least the first 3)

Show me the numbers......!

 

Can hardly wait for the results

 

what would be the dif in the best case... are we talking 3-5 whp....

Spillman.... what are you running with your turbo only set up.....?

 

No. Do you have any idea what it takes to do that? For 4-5 IC configurations, just the WOT test in 2nd took over 50 full power pulls. To get good numbers, you're talking 3-5 GOOD runs (not to hot, not to cold) for each and every configuration. There are about 8-10 aftermarket ICs out there, so you're asking for somewhere north of 100 different data runs. Believe me, that is not easy to do, nor fast. You've just asked for close to a week of work, on north of $5k in parts. Step up with your checkbook!

Tell you what, I just started consulting again, My rates are low (for my industry) only $1000/day. For $5k, you pay for parts, I'll get you the numbers.

But then again, for that kind of money, you could buy a lot of diagnostics and do it yourself.

I don't know how many people really understand what it takes to get a good number. It's not easy without access to lots of time and equipement.

So YakiMini, my best advice is to start getting some logging equipement, and add to the "data loggers anonymous" crew that is growing. Otherwise, send me a check for $5k (paypal is OK ) and the parts you want to know about, or do it yourself.

Actually, if you really want a car that is modified and good, I'd suggest that you will never really be satisfied until you own the understanding of what works and why. Testing results, as opposed to adding up HP numbers from vendor websites, is as fast an education in motor modification (and marketing hype) as you can get anywhere.

Matt

 

A custom front mounted bell intercooler. Can you say no heat soak. It's a huge difference.

 

a lot of mustangers run an air to air with a pancake fan on it because they don't have a good path for cooling air. (sound familiar?) A lot of the Vortec (and it's equivalent) crowd do that.

just planting seeds....

Matt

 

"just planting seeds...."
To grow money? If so, I'm interested......

 

I'm not asking for anyone person to try all IC's. If you have A (singular) aftermarket IC? Test it against the OEM in one of the 4 situations. If you can do all 4, even better.

 

I think what Matt's trying to say is that *you* should do some testing, or provide support for the testing you're asking for. I ended up buying some instruments to allow me to do some testing (a GTech RR accelerometer and a Davtron IC temperature kit). The more people who test the better, as more data will accumulate, despite all the variances that accompany such decentralized methods. And more data are better than less, even with measurement error and the like.
cheers,

 

Actually, I have been trying to schedule some testing for about 2 months now but it is always raining thus I no results.
I have a OEM, original ALTA, Mini-Madness water-to-air, and one similar to the new Alta/M7.

 

I had suggested that we pay you (Matt) for your time in another thread as I think it is only fair and would be of great value to the MINI community but this was your response:

Why I do what I do and other tid-bits...
Wow, I gotta say thanks for the offers of support, but (and this is hard to say): I don't want any.

I measure because I like to.
I share because that's the way I am.

But there's more to it than that. All this started because I couldn't replicate HP claims for vendors. But to be fair to the vendors, I don't have the resources to do it the same way (like no profit stream to pay for dyno time). Also, I've been, at times, pretty harsh on folks who posted numbers without really understanding testing methodology, measurement uncertainty, precision and accuracy, or statistics.

But I'm not all altruism. I did have an idea for a product line for Mini parts (not really performance parts, more on the line of information and human interface stuff), and if that were to happen, going out and testing and providing value to the community would create a reputation of integrity, which I hope has happened. but life doesn't always go as planned, and my "partner in crime" decided he didn't want to go through the hassle of getting his green card (which is a real PITA now, even though he's got a work visa and isn't a security risk, and he and I have created award winning products in the semiconductor industry) Seems programmers are a national security threat , and it's very, very hard to be a forigner here in the US, and his son is about to start school, so back to Germany he went, where our BS border policies and shakey public schools will no longer be a (direct) concern to him. Oh well.

Now, during that time I got hooked up with Gary and MC Squared, and you all (at least those that bought subscriptions! ) get the benefit of my insight. It pays a page rate (no, not much, but hay, now I'm a paid automotive journalist!) and gets a distribution to, belive it or not, those that don't know about NAM! And life is going on.

So, what do I get out of this? Well, I tested Jeff Perrin's prototype flow through (I was the perfect candidate as I'd said I didn't think it would work!). In exchange Jeff has offered to help with parts discounts if I need anything. For the record, I've never taken advantage of the offer.

With M7 I did an exchange of service. After writing a thread on "improving the AGS, one man's journey" or something like that, Peter offered to send me a V3 AGS tube because I was working on a V1. (I don't know if my work in the thread started them doing the flow modeling of the pockets around the thread inserts or not, doesn't really matter, but it lead to better product.) I'm no dummy, so I accepted. this started a conversation about creating a how to for it's install, and in exchange for doing it (including hacking my own wiring harness for the TB extension) I was "paid" for the work (all 26 pages) with a DFIC for testing, that I get to keep. FWIW, that compensation rate is about 30% of what I'm to charge the Semi industry for consulting work. And if I didn't like it, you can be it would show up in the Marketplace for others to enjoy.

Through MC2, I've had the prevalage of meeting the Dinan crowed, including Steve, the man himself, and got the Dinan demo car for a weekend to drive. That was fun! I also got to help Gary with his brake job, and went to the Historics on MC2s dime (me and Alison liked it more than Cheryl did. She got lots and lots of Mommy duties, and the bed wasn't that comfortable, with Alison doing cartwheels between us as we tried to sleep.) And Alison has been in a magazine, and Cheryl got to write a column, and every now and then, some parts that have been sent in from vendors filter onto my car (right now, the gominigo front licence plate holder is getting "tested" on my rig!) And I get itty bitty paychecks for all my efforts!

So, everyone involved has an ajenda. Mine was to make an objective name for possible future commercial gain, with an occational part thrown in. The vendors of parts that I test get an "independant" evaluation that isn't them tooting thier own horn. MC2 gets much more understanding about cars technology than they could afford at initial start up of the magazine, and you all get some numbers with a well described testing methodology with statistical significance attached to the numbers presented. We all give and get something for the efforts.

Now, I appreciate the offer of support, but like I said earlier, no thank you all. If I took money, I'd have to deliver on a time line, and right now, that's my time line (aks Jeff about that, I have another one of his parts to test that I haven't done jack for, but he's getting what he paid for!)

Maybe in the future it will change. but for now, if you want to thank me with money, send it to:
Amnesty International,
the Interfaith Alliance.
American Rivers or the ACLU.
They all are doing things much more important than I, and with our current social and political climate, they have a much harder job than most any of us. (Yeah, I' a liberal, but I say that with pride). Do what you want (as long as it doens't step on others rights), and protect the system that gives us all the freedoms that many appear to take so for granted.

But I'm both surprised and touched, that's for sure. And that combo is pretty rare in my life. So thank you one and all....

Matt

Should we revisit the idea?

 

*This* is the most interesting thing I've read in the last week! Exactly what is an intercooler that is "similar to the new Alta/M7" but not the same? Is this the proto that Don (dmh) had on his car this summer? Is there something in design/proto stage that we can look forward to?
We demand more information!!
cheers,

 

G-Tech Pro RR > $300
Temp monitoring equipment, from cheap for crappy, to very expensive for good (Jeg's sells an eight channel EGT set up with logging for $900 as an example DataQ sells a four channel Tc logger for about $500)

But what you will find if you actually get this stuff, is that the testing process can get pretty involved. You should check coolant temps to know the car is at operating temp, and not starting to heat up. And you need the repeatability in measurement to know what data points are good, and the statistics (average and standard deviation) of the number measured. While this isn't rocket science, it's a good amount of work.

Also, what I've found is that it's best to measure what you want to know, as this is really the only way to understand the measurement constraints and compramises.

There is also a big problem with aggregating results out of lots of measurements. Most cars and test conditions are different, so much so that it becomes nearly impossible to make a very good conclusion when you're looking for small differences between products. But that said, the more numbers with description of test regimin and conditions the better! Get some logging equipement and come join the party!

Matt

 

I don't want to run a testing business. I do what I do for lots of reasons, mostly out of my own curiosity. And I like to share, so if I get it done, it end up out in the public domain.

But it really comes down to the fact that I'm either very lazy and occationally hard working, or very hard working, with a lazy streak. Right now I'm happy with the "life flow" that I'm going through now, and don't want any big changes.

You all may see other automitive offerings from me at some point (There's that laziness thing again), but not a testing service. There you have to work hard for every dollar. With products, the hard work is in the development, and once it's launched, getting more income from a next unit sold is an easier effort!

Matt

 

Out of all the components that can repeat with any consistancy the IC is less than last.
You can compare on a flow bench
You can find the max flow in CFM
You can weigh them
You can heat them in an oven & time the heating & cooling rate

To compare in the real world?
My sons godfather is an emergency room doctor. Several customer friends are surgeons & a closefriend is in design & sales of operating room equipment. You can guess where we find the best instruments. Any reasonable data for all ICs that I have tested, while on the car, do not repeate (for me anyway).

 

ALL you guys should refer BACK to MY posts on page ten (feb)----the V-2 is JUNK. The heat soak is indefensible due to the app 200% increase in size ( physical) once its hot its over !! The oem IS more efficient according to dyno testing at PSI in hillsboro,oregon. Also the dfic (m-7s) has a REMOVABLE front landing giving access to the radiator bleeder screw/valve etc. Try getting a scoop that works for the V-2 outta alta or a protective grill for the fins. M-7s IS definitely a FAR better unit and comes w / EVERYTHING.. IF you're gonna go that way-------water to air or similar IS really the ONLY way--------I found out the VERY hard way !! Iwouldn't even GIVE you the v-2 hangin on my wall --let alone sell it to anybody----then again there are "some" out there that can't ------aww----screw it