Is this first comment sarcasm/an attempt at humor/facetious?

The only reason I ask, is that I believe this is pretty much textbook stuff.

Does anyone here believe that a T/C will produce greater peak torque/power than a single BIG turbo, or possibly a twin-turbo configuration? Were you of the perception that this was an espoused belief?

IMO T/C has always been about torque vs. time & rpm range... i.e. How much can we produce in X rpm/seconds? How long can we sustain it? Peak is of interest, but secondary.

I'm also pretty certain the reason we haven't seen Hubie, Tim & the rest of the Fireballed guys going the turbo only route is that as drag racers they need every 10th/100th they can muster. Waiting for a 1.6 to spool up a big turbo, then trying to keep it in the meat down the 1/4 mile just isn't practical. They'd run out of track before the turbo could make up for its initial boost delay... Though I'll bet an M62 + turbo would produce a quick beastie.

I don't believe the T/C quest was ever "how do we produce the highest peak torque, and/or how do we achieve this with maximum efficiency."

Its exactly as you stated... at some point the S/C definitely becomes the bottleneck! The point of diminishing returns.

It should be quite evident that two pumps in one system can not be as efficient as a single pump. And while it might seem reasonable to conlcude that if pump #1 can produce 10psi boost, that pump #1+ pump #2 should produce 20psi boost, we know this notion is erroneous. Adding a second (100% more) pump does not increase boost 100%. There are losses in efficiency.

Whether turbo or s/c either pump will occupy some portion of the intake/combustion/exhaust path. A turbo alone will add some backpressure - (most significant at lower rpm) and friction, its mass is also a heatsink. These are acceptable tradeoffs for improved efficiency in higher rpm. The s/c, becase its running directly off the crank is parasitic from the get-go. Its larger rotors consume more energy than does the turbo. They also create more friction /add heat as the charge is compressed into the manifold. The greater mass of the S/C also makes it a big heatsink- all of this equates to a hotter charge. The S/C is less efficient on 2 fronts.

Whether we are talking 2 superchargers or 2 turbos we cannot escape the reality of losses in efficiency.

So... we add a turbo to our S/C in a common system. We've increased boost and we can even manipulate the rpm of each pump to achieve a lower IAT. Yes, the system is not the most efficient, but its purpose is specific, and is not acheived in any other manner (I've heard of).

It all comes down to ones ideals, preferences and or priorities.

 

If you take my words: in the actual context they were written:

You'd note that the discussion regarded the intake manifold. Click the Saclam link in my original post to see thier intake manifold modifications.

My point to Seann was that changing the intake manifold is a really big deal, and must be done by the right people with the right measuring devices & knowlege. IMO power & driveability is more likely to be lost as made.

 

Especially for you, yeah. Everyone else, no.
I'm tring to understand why the twin kits are such a holy grail. Take this into consideration:

Fireball uses a GT28R turbo, depending on version good for up to 300hp alone, spoils faster than GT28RS turbo.

Helix uses a GT28RS "disco potato" turbo, good up to 350hp alone, depending on version.

Must apologize, turbobygarrett.com is down, so this link will have to surfice for ratings. But these are accurate. Or if you request, I'll photo a Garrett insert from Precision Turbo.

A google turned up a honda with GT28rs where 11lbs = 320hp, sorry, missed the link. But here is a Fiat with similar numbers on the same turbo (.64 housing). (1bar = approx 14lbs) Fiat @1.35 bar produces 320hp. Theres a torque graph in there too mate. Also a Fiat with GT28R and 275bhp @ 1.3bar here. More goodness.

Helix's website states a max boost of 21.5lbs. Search around on NAM and you'll find a motor popped at 20lbs with a twin kit installed (which?). According to Detroit Tuned, Fireball runs 8lbs through their turbo in "basic" form, good for 245hp. The supercharger runs 9-11lbs, total = 19lbs (if it works that way, if not I care not, is doens't affect the outcome--v).

Niether twin kits effieciently use their turbos to their manufactured potential:

GT28R map
GT28RS map

Hmmmm.... with the twin kits; 19-21lbs, risk motor, maybe see 300hp.
In each kit, the turbos' alone produced more power at lower boost.

Price:
GT28R turbo = $775
GT28RS turbo = $995

Fireball TC = $5480
Helix TC = $4800

Who knew an exhaust manifold, wastegate, piping, and fitings would run $3000-$4500? post #4

As far as this goes:
Your right I misread.

 

We're getting quite OT here, so lets try to end this soon.

Firstly, what are we trying to discuss here? I don't see there being much in the way of disagreement.

We’ve already addressed the probability of damage thing – more variables= more probability. And you can “risk the motor” with a turbo too. Let’s not get off on THAT tangent.

Why should I (or anyone else) care that neither kit uses its turbo efficiently or to potential? I don’t think anyone suggested that was the goal. This is your beef – perceived intended use vs. actual use. If you feel that this is a waste of a turbo then fine, but most of what you’re bringing up was discussed TO DEATH in threads over a year old! Lets not rehash.

One point though…
For clarity’s sake please stick to talking about MINIs. Its fine to BS with one's friends about how much power a Honda or Fiat is making, but for the purposes of this discussion (the FBT kit) such comparisons are of little to no value. There is so much difference from one intake/engine/exhaust system to the next that using absolute (quoted) hp figures from any car other than an MCS verges on meaningless.

I don't know that T/C rigs are the considered to be the holly grail. At the moment I'm quite fond of the M62 conversion. And if there were such a thing I'd be even more interested in a twin-turbo.

I think T/C cars / kits appeal for a variety of reasons. Certainly one of which is power delivery. Anyone who's driven or been in a T/C car can attest to how rapidly the torque comes on. The same cannot be said for a turbo - I don't care who's you want to compare. Turbo's spool up, then they go like hell... but its not the same power delivery.

I also suppose that the very notion of "dual charging" a car appeals to some - nothing to do with efficiency or maximal power.

For me and my driving (location & preference) a turbo, no matter the impressive peak TQ/HP/efficiency will not suffice - at least not on the MINI. Give me a car with larger displacement, a quick turbo and I'll be quite satisfied, but then it wouldn't be/drive like a MINI

As it pertains to the MINI's 1.6 I can't get excited about a turbo. This is a driving preference thing. I like my torque early in rev range, and I don't like it peak-ie. In fact I like few vehicles, which require me to wring the snot out of the engine to get what I want. I don't care if its the Honda S2000 I had for a while or my old Suzuki dirt bike (albeit a 2 stroke)... Engines that force one to keep the revs WAY up are more work - period. If you enjoy that, then that's great - you know which direction to take, and the Fireball T/C kit is not for you.

Where I live & drive a T/C kit - like the FB (or an M62 swap) would be more useful/satisfying. And as for the M62 swap...the jury's still out, although it looks intriguing.

So, hopefully you get where I'm at & why others might prefer a T/C rig to a turbo.

 

OK here's a few of my thoughts for the last few posts;

The intake manifold definitely holds more potential. Just not the factory one. The Mini need something like this http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/int...ifolds/dsm.htm

I ran one of those on my Eagle Talon and got almost 30hp. Porting the factory one is close to useless IMO and the venders severely overcharge for it. Mugen is modifyiing OEM parts not making anything new.

As far as building boost...well there is little to no lag on a GT28rs. Its a fairly small turbo compressor wise and spools quite easily. I think my Talon had full boost by 4000 but spooled low 3000's. We are not talking about a big turbo here maybe your misinformed.

Your comment of Twin charge being used to supplement a lacks in size of head ports and intake manifold does not make much sense to me. It doesn't matter f you put a GT42 in place of the GT28RS. The intake manifold is what lets the air in to the engine is it not? Making that bigger will allow the GT28 to run more efficiently.

I agreee with Goin440, I have seen cars make better use of a GT28rs than these twincharged kits which is significant considering we add superchargers in the mix. However Goin440's reference to turbo kits.com I believe is for a standard MC and not a MCS.

yes I believe a single turbo will produce better power on the Mini than TC because I agree with some people that the Supercharger / intake manifold combo is a bottle neck. I do agree however the M62 would be kickass TC but thats more power than i want to make myself.

I think the TC has not only the cool factor but it's also a hell of a lot easier to add a turbo then it is to add a turbo and delete the charger. I think TC was the quickest way to the big power area without really having to do a lot of work. Removing the charger would take time and a little bit of fabrication and creative thinking. I respect the fella from Detroit tuned for going that route. I am still undecided as far as T/C, the M62 or straight turbo conversion but within the next year i will have done one of them!

Anyways like Minimc said we're a little off topic but i think both you guys have interesting and valid points and I can appreciate what your both trying to say.

Cheers

Seann

 

check out ryephile's build on www.michiganmini.org, its extremely informative and well put together.

a s/c turbo combo is much easier to make, and more of a linear torque curve.... if you want big power from a 1.6L your going to need a relatively big turbo, that will need a few rpm's to spool. The GT3071R, which alta supplies (i have the kit, have yet to install) by itself, which ryephile did, wouldn't spool fully until around 4200 rpm's. With the S/C you'll get the boost, much lower, but won't make the most power... The supercharger at stock boost levels eats something like 30-40 horsepower... a pullied supercharger running a 19 eats around 65-70 horsepower.... A turbo only setup will put that that power to the wheels instead of using it to spin the s/c. So basically this means that you could run 16 psig and hit 300whp, or up the boost more and make 350-400 at 22psig...

if you have set a more reasonable level of horsepower... like 250whp, you could put on smaller turbo... something like a gt25, which would have better spooling capabilities! or/and you build the head and do a 8000rpm redline and make power through rev's...

strokes for different folks, i will go twincharge first, just because its easier, and then will fabricate my own turbo setup... although its not the actual fabricating i am worrying about... its the ECU! I am waiting to see if the Hydra comes out... that would make everything much easier!! ALTA are you listening!

 

A little birdie told my I may be able to use my Unichip's wiring to rig up a harness for an AEM standalone. Going to start working on that in Decemberish hopefully.

Seann

 

Thanks for all the good chat

I recall drooling over a carbon fiber intake manifold that E.N.D.Y.N. was selling for B-16 engines - made by AIR . E.N.D.Y.N. now produce this manifold out of aluminum.

EDIT: Re: Saclam (Mugen)
Those guys are a capable bunch. They test and prototype as few in N.A. do. When they tested the MCS they found that the intake manifold (in the context of the OEM supercharger) was very good. The head and exhaust manifold were an entirely different story. Take a look at how much work they put into the header (DAMN its sweet!) and in optimising other areas of loss/efficiency. If they could have made significant power by replacing the intake manifold they'd have made one.

Interestingly enough E.N.D.Y.N. were of the same opinion re: the OEM intake manifold. I wonder how many other reputable tuners share this position?

Cheers!

 

i think i read somewhere that the fireballed team came up with an intake manifold, but it is to big to be used with a supercharger. you would have to go straight turbo

 

Some real life comparisons:

It's tough with all the speculation of how the MINI should run, whether you go TC or turbo only or even what turbo you use. The only way to really know for sure is to drive one. I have two cars that I can compare directly to one another. My daily sled, which is an Audi TT that has quite a few mods is a lot nicer to drive around town then the TC MINI. Some of the major differences are made up in the gearing. The gearing on the MINI is just too tall IMHO. 1st gear does nothing around town unless you put your foot into it, then you feel like a clown as it starts to scream the tyres and such. I did take a ride in an 05 that was TC also with the Alta kit & it had better drivability around town gearing wise.

My TT is geared to the other extreme. 1st gear revs to the red around 15mph. Although that makes it to short, creeping around town is much eaiser and acceleration and much more noticeable. Flat out and out, the MINI walks away on WOT, mainly due to the gearing. But this is only useful on the onramps. I take one every single day to get to work that is a real bugger pulling out on. Hands down the MINI will be up to speed and then some at redline in 2nd, where the TT needs 3rd and just doesnt pull that hard uptop. Long story short, the TT spools up its turbo only much faster than the MINI with TC. I hit a maxx of 22psi on the TT before it pulls back and sets in at 17psi. The MINI is set for a max of 23psi and will hold that till the engine comes apart. This is nothing govering the MINI's boost except my right foot.

Now from what I can remember, when the MINI was just on SC only it could barely get out of its way compared to now. BUT it is not as fun to drive everday period. Like I said a lot comes down to gearing, clutch/flywheel combo and the such. Also the MINI is so freaking loud its rediculous. Its like driving in a full on Ralley car. I much rather take the TT to go get milk if you know what I mean.

 

Found a couple interesting links:

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/prod/MC2501-X

http://www.bishopmotorsports.com/product_id/13/

Essentailly, someone could buy one of these kits and upgrade to a GT28 series turbo similar or better than the twin kits, cheaper than the twin kits.

IMO, a GT2871R w/ 56 trim .56 a/r compressor and 76 trim .64 a/r turbine would be a smokin combo on the MINI. You get a quick spoil with the small turbine housing with the 475hp potential of the compressor combination.

I know, I know, I seem to be leading this thread off topic.

 

where can i get a twincharger kit at or the main site to somthing like fireball or Helix

 

Just click on w in Main Menu and you will find them there

 

In all kindness... and i am not trying to insult your or your knowledge, but based off of my experiance

cast headers are garbage when you start talking about heat and making real power.

Look at everyother car... the cast headers are in the cheap turbo kits. the better kits run tubular manifolds.

 

2005 pepper white Cooper S
2006 dark silver cooper s convertible
quickest and fastest non-turbo, non nitrous assisted MINI 13.2@105.5

what mini and what do u have done to it

 

its a cooper S,

full weight street car except that it had the back seat removed.

it has the following parts made by my company (arizona power and sound)

ported and polished cylinder head
15% pulley
62.5mm throttle body
port matched intake manifold

Custom dyno tune with AFC


Schrick cam
OBX header
light weight 16 inch wheels with toyo t1-r's (not an R compound)
B and B exhaust
mania intake was on the car at time (it sucks)

Biggest mod...

driver skill,

most people will only go low 14s in a car like this...

will be aiming for 12's in two weeks

 

Just as well we're 8hrs in front of you, looks like I'll be in the 12s first

 

DAMN! your right! Not only is the pound almost twice as much as the dollar but you are 8 hours ahead! talk about an uphil battle for me! Thats it... im moving to england