Drivetrain Heads...a discussion
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Westlake, Ohio
"The secrets to a head can be given in less than 20 words."
Ok, I'll concede that point, but do you think those numbers would have surfaced in this thread?
"what makes a good head"
As consumers, we don't "need" to know, but all of us would like to know. The more info we have, the better we feel about our purchases. Personally, I turn away from products that claim to be better or more powerful just because the vendor says so. By participating in the discussion, the vendors can assure potential customers not only of a product's claimed improvements, but of their own level of competence. That way, when they can't prove gains without giving away their secrets, we still trust that they've done the research and testing.
"who makes the best?"
Camelpilot, your loyalty to Randy is well documented, and I respect that. It says a lot when customers stand by a vendor in whom they believe. However, others (like Don) might dispute your assesment.
Ok, I'll concede that point, but do you think those numbers would have surfaced in this thread?
"what makes a good head"
As consumers, we don't "need" to know, but all of us would like to know. The more info we have, the better we feel about our purchases. Personally, I turn away from products that claim to be better or more powerful just because the vendor says so. By participating in the discussion, the vendors can assure potential customers not only of a product's claimed improvements, but of their own level of competence. That way, when they can't prove gains without giving away their secrets, we still trust that they've done the research and testing.
"who makes the best?"
Camelpilot, your loyalty to Randy is well documented, and I respect that. It says a lot when customers stand by a vendor in whom they believe. However, others (like Don) might dispute your assesment.
Did you have any other aftermarket or tweaked heads on your car besides WMS?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
"Torquey and quick." me too....
Specing the head can only realy be done after you figure the, HP, TQ, range you are looking for. There's a lot to specing a head. Just the valve springs can be dificult, install hight, spring length, seat presure, compresion to coil bind, nose presure ( top of cam ) all need to match the cam as the ramp speed will effect the way the springs react. Valves are also depend on cam duration. Big valves flow well but they can be too big. A high winder may need better rockers. The good thing is there are not 100s of cams to choose from & the posibility of building a head for a spec range is very possible.
I'm glad to see that the exhaust side of the present head is where some of you are looking for improvment. One of the reasons for the famous "flat spot" has to do with the intake in relationship with the exhaust. This relationship could bring back the header argument since there are only a few headers that address this problem ( the big reason there is no header on my car ).
To make big numbers, the head is the best place to do it, however everything must match, intake to intake port, header to exhaust port, header primary length.......... Then you throw a blower in the mix.... and a 1.6l.
My wife says I can do anything in 10 minutes...... What is she thinking????? Wait don't answer that.
Specing the head can only realy be done after you figure the, HP, TQ, range you are looking for. There's a lot to specing a head. Just the valve springs can be dificult, install hight, spring length, seat presure, compresion to coil bind, nose presure ( top of cam ) all need to match the cam as the ramp speed will effect the way the springs react. Valves are also depend on cam duration. Big valves flow well but they can be too big. A high winder may need better rockers. The good thing is there are not 100s of cams to choose from & the posibility of building a head for a spec range is very possible.
I'm glad to see that the exhaust side of the present head is where some of you are looking for improvment. One of the reasons for the famous "flat spot" has to do with the intake in relationship with the exhaust. This relationship could bring back the header argument since there are only a few headers that address this problem ( the big reason there is no header on my car ).
To make big numbers, the head is the best place to do it, however everything must match, intake to intake port, header to exhaust port, header primary length.......... Then you throw a blower in the mix.... and a 1.6l.
My wife says I can do anything in 10 minutes...... What is she thinking????? Wait don't answer that.
Yea, that's what I said...
just more technical...
and accurate
and stuff
Except for the 10 minute part
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 134
Likes: 1
I port my own heads since the '80s, but need a cam...
Mine's an '02 non "S", so no kompressor to make up for other weakness. Is Schrick the only outfit to make cams for Mini's? The way I see it is if yours is a non "S" car, it's heavy and has a tiny engine, so head mods must address this in order to produce a snappier moving car. My car also has a cvt, so that adds to sluggishness. I think I need more valve lift and a little more duration to fully realise flow improvement in my cylinder head. The car's faster, but not fast enough. Naturally, I want to gain for as little money as possible. So, who's got cams besides Schrick? -Jeffy.
This thread makes me think of a quote from a movie... I'll let you figure out which one.
"I guess I could get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a cows ****, But I'd rather take the butchers word for it."
No but seriously, it sucks that the vendors and people with the knowledge wont/(cant i guess) share information on what makes the best head for the average mini driver.
As Don and Randy have illuded to they can't tell us what would work best without tipping their hand. But at the same time, we are talking about consumers here. Most of us arne't racing eachother here, and what do you guys really think the odds are that if say, don shared his head information that Randy or the guys at Cosworth would really change what they are doing now to take advantage of it?
I guess the best way to have the vendors put their .02 in this thread, is pitch us your head. Sell it to us and make us want to buy your head, then we as a discussion board can sift through the BS.
Idk it seemed like a good idea as i was typing it.
"I guess I could get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a cows ****, But I'd rather take the butchers word for it."
No but seriously, it sucks that the vendors and people with the knowledge wont/(cant i guess) share information on what makes the best head for the average mini driver.
As Don and Randy have illuded to they can't tell us what would work best without tipping their hand. But at the same time, we are talking about consumers here. Most of us arne't racing eachother here, and what do you guys really think the odds are that if say, don shared his head information that Randy or the guys at Cosworth would really change what they are doing now to take advantage of it?
I guess the best way to have the vendors put their .02 in this thread, is pitch us your head. Sell it to us and make us want to buy your head, then we as a discussion board can sift through the BS.
Idk it seemed like a good idea as i was typing it.
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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I dont see this thread as educational to the public - For that, just do google research on how cams and heads work.
I see it more as a fishing move by some who need the secrets that others have worked hard and long to figure out.
If the aim of this thread is to figure out which Tuner's head to purchase (because everyone wants the best for their MINI) then I can give everyone the answer right here and right now, and save all the bogus pretend talk.
Get the Webb Motorsports Head.
It's the best one out there. Not only that but it comes with a specifically spec'd CAM, and hate to say this out loud, but it's cheaper than alot of the other performance head packages out there.
Now... time for me to /duck from the other tuners out there who want to give me head.
I see it more as a fishing move by some who need the secrets that others have worked hard and long to figure out.
If the aim of this thread is to figure out which Tuner's head to purchase (because everyone wants the best for their MINI) then I can give everyone the answer right here and right now, and save all the bogus pretend talk.
Get the Webb Motorsports Head.
It's the best one out there. Not only that but it comes with a specifically spec'd CAM, and hate to say this out loud, but it's cheaper than alot of the other performance head packages out there.
Now... time for me to /duck from the other tuners out there who want to give me head.
The purpose and goal of this thread is to have a discussion in general as to how the aftermarket heads make a difference and in general the how and why certain "specs" work..... Getting the info from Wikipedia or a "text" book helps only in the broadest sense of the internal combustion engine.....I spent 2 years in tech school rebuilding engines from the crank up and grinding valves.....plus special GM school....thank you..... this thread is specific to the Mini 1.6L engine.....probably not addressed in any literature at this point..... this is not about advertising or plugging your product or tearing down your competitors or slamming the heads that you do not own..... I think there is a group that can get above that.....
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
No comment on the 10 minute part, which means no comment on the 10 minute part.
There realy is no seceret method to build a head. A lot of it is seat of the pants experience with a little science. The WMS head may very well be the best head out there right now. There's no telling how many great builders are out there that could build something better. WMS stop their R&D? Do you think? NOT.
The Mini head is how old? Not very & it seems somewhat short lived with the advent of the 07 model. That's not to say you won't see some great aftermarket for it.
Jeffy, you may be able to have your cam re-ground for your MC. There are quite a few companies that do just that, Cam Techniques comes to mind, but there many more. You will need to find a company that has a grind for your car.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
I just saw this.... Camel I find your assertions insulting..... I do own a WMS head and have no intention of replacing it or producing a competitor.... Randy, put a muzzle on your dog.
The purpose and goal of this thread is to have a discussion in general as to how the aftermarket heads make a difference and in general the how and why certain "specs" work..... Getting the info from Wikipedia or a "text" book helps only in the broadest sense of the internal combustion engine.....I spent 2 years in tech school rebuilding engines from the crank up and grinding valves.....plus special GM school....thank you..... this thread is specific to the Mini 1.6L engine.....probably not addressed in any literature at this point..... this is not about advertising or plugging your product or tearing down your competitors or slamming the heads that you do not own..... I think there is a group that can get above that.....
The purpose and goal of this thread is to have a discussion in general as to how the aftermarket heads make a difference and in general the how and why certain "specs" work..... Getting the info from Wikipedia or a "text" book helps only in the broadest sense of the internal combustion engine.....I spent 2 years in tech school rebuilding engines from the crank up and grinding valves.....plus special GM school....thank you..... this thread is specific to the Mini 1.6L engine.....probably not addressed in any literature at this point..... this is not about advertising or plugging your product or tearing down your competitors or slamming the heads that you do not own..... I think there is a group that can get above that.....
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6th Gear
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point well taken... i was abit disappointed in myself as I left for my haircut.... i just got a bit pissed...... see edit.......section deleted
Banned
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,848
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From: City of Angels, Cali
edit.
The purpose and goal of this thread is to have a discussion in general as to how the aftermarket heads make a difference and in general the how and why certain "specs" work..... Getting the info from Wikipedia or a "text" book helps only in the broadest sense of the internal combustion engine.....I spent 2 years in tech school rebuilding engines from the crank up and grinding valves.....plus special GM school....thank you..... this thread is specific to the Mini 1.6L engine.....probably not addressed in any literature at this point..... this is not about advertising or plugging your product or tearing down your competitors or slamming the heads that you do not own..... I think there is a group that can get above that.....
The purpose and goal of this thread is to have a discussion in general as to how the aftermarket heads make a difference and in general the how and why certain "specs" work..... Getting the info from Wikipedia or a "text" book helps only in the broadest sense of the internal combustion engine.....I spent 2 years in tech school rebuilding engines from the crank up and grinding valves.....plus special GM school....thank you..... this thread is specific to the Mini 1.6L engine.....probably not addressed in any literature at this point..... this is not about advertising or plugging your product or tearing down your competitors or slamming the heads that you do not own..... I think there is a group that can get above that.....
As for the muzzle...... why don't you come here and try and put one on me.
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6th Gear
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I slammed no competitors head, nor do I choose to own one. I did my research before I went with Randy's. Someone mentioned here to get the Head tuners to "sell" their heads in this thread - that would probably better achieve "helping" any potential customers in choosing a head, than just saying "Hey tuner, tell me your head's secrets".
As for the muzzle...... why don't you come here and try and put one on me.
As for the muzzle...... why don't you come here and try and put one on me.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: City of Angels, Cali
Savvy?
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Northampton MA
As far as vendors / builders go I'll bet DMH builds a pretty darn good head....
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6th Gear
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there are many that wonder about the +/- of different aftermarket head design philosophy specific to the Mini.......
an example is professional power amplifiers..... there are many design philosophies .... regarding power supplies.... output topology etc.... the companies that manufacture these products are very open and brag about their technology..... direct copies I suppose could be achieved but if any mfg really wants to know "secrets" there are ways to get that info..... simply buy one look at it and when you are done sell it..... c'mon, this is intended to be a fun discussion about heads/valves/cams/ports/intake/exhaust philosophy and how it works or does not work on the Mini..... it could also serve to help people understand why they may want a head of this or that design considering how far they want to take their cars.....
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6th Gear
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so far, "contentious"........ yes.......but "technically fascinating" needs some work....
Why, sir, that is the action of a provocateur!
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
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From: Denver
I am not responsible or do I care to herd anyone other than myself (and my kids - which are hard enough!). Nuff said 'bout that.
As for data, I will dig up some of the stuff we have posted in the past regarding flow bench numbers. I will share the following info in the meantime:
This is how we build our head, and I'll talk a little on the development as well. We start with the stock MINI head and flow bench it. We then do our own portwork, change the valve grind angles (which is a secret in itself), change the combustion chamber, throw on the new valves and deck the head then install the new camshaft. Once completed, it is flow benched again. We always do before and after comparisons on every head we build. When doing the development, we made more CFM with the first ten or so heads as we kept finding more and more little tricks specific to this head. We port, then flowbench, then port, then flow bench, then dyno.
We also took the very important step of driving the car with different set ups. The Mule ran with the first port, then the second port, then larger valves, then finally the new cam. We have several street cars we used for development as well. We also used the dyno - only as a tool to make sure the CFM matched a performance increase.
We have also looked at other heads done by other vendors - and I have never seen the need to use anything we learned from them. I certainly haven't seen all of them though.
I'll post more info shortly.
Hope that helps!
Randy
As for data, I will dig up some of the stuff we have posted in the past regarding flow bench numbers. I will share the following info in the meantime:
This is how we build our head, and I'll talk a little on the development as well. We start with the stock MINI head and flow bench it. We then do our own portwork, change the valve grind angles (which is a secret in itself), change the combustion chamber, throw on the new valves and deck the head then install the new camshaft. Once completed, it is flow benched again. We always do before and after comparisons on every head we build. When doing the development, we made more CFM with the first ten or so heads as we kept finding more and more little tricks specific to this head. We port, then flowbench, then port, then flow bench, then dyno.
We also took the very important step of driving the car with different set ups. The Mule ran with the first port, then the second port, then larger valves, then finally the new cam. We have several street cars we used for development as well. We also used the dyno - only as a tool to make sure the CFM matched a performance increase.
We have also looked at other heads done by other vendors - and I have never seen the need to use anything we learned from them. I certainly haven't seen all of them though.
I'll post more info shortly.
Hope that helps!
Randy
It just kinda sucks that any time you ask for any kind of positives or negatives for any products that cost more then 1k... all you get from the vendors is. "My product is the best, we have done all sorts of tuning and tests to make sure it is. Take our word for it." Kinda hard to believe when there are ummm... about 5 of them and they are all claiming that they are the best and their work is proprietary and no one elses measures up... Oh not to mention most of them excersize the scientific method when testing parts whether they know it or not.
Well I guess it wasn't my 2-4k any way... Hell I might as well just send them all my paychecks and take their words for it.
At a certain point, it is a customer based industry.
P.S. I don't mean to **** of vendors in any way but they have to see that some of us have a problem dropping a heafty fraction of our annual income to trusting a person whom we've never met with proof we can't ever see.
edit: Posted before Randy's post... Good to have an honest vendor making me eat my own words as i type them... gobble gobble gobble. Mmmmm humble pie tastes so good!!!
Well I guess it wasn't my 2-4k any way... Hell I might as well just send them all my paychecks and take their words for it.
At a certain point, it is a customer based industry.
P.S. I don't mean to **** of vendors in any way but they have to see that some of us have a problem dropping a heafty fraction of our annual income to trusting a person whom we've never met with proof we can't ever see.
edit: Posted before Randy's post... Good to have an honest vendor making me eat my own words as i type them... gobble gobble gobble. Mmmmm humble pie tastes so good!!!
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Denver
Here are the flow bench numbers from one of the early heads - our peaks are significantly higher now, as is the quality of flow (something not reflected in the numbers).
Here are the numbers with comparisons to stock using one of the first heads we did - the numbers are higher still now that we've learned more.
They are stock, 1mm oversized, and 1mm oversized ported.
lift __int stk __1mm stk __1mm ported __exh stk __1mm stk __1mm ported
.050 __32.7___49.3_______51.7________31.0_____29.7_____ _44.7
.100 __66.2___82.6_______84.2________51.4______45.0____ __82.7
.150 __98.2___110.4______111.1_______76.9______81.2____ __113.6
.200 _127.4___136.2______149.4_______97.5_____106.9____ __137.9
.250 _153.0___160.1______176.1_______106.0____120.1____ __151.4
.300 _169.1___179.3______195.5_______111.0____126.9____ __158.6
.350 _174.3___182.3______205.8_______113.0____130.2____ __160.6
.400 _175.7___191.0______209.5_______114.5____132.1____ __162.6
.450 _175.3___193.4______211.0_______115.9____133.2____ __164.3
.500 ___________________215.7__________________________ _166.3
And pics of the porting and development:
Here are some of the flow bench shots:
If there are any other shots you would like, or info you think I could share, let me know.
The part I am worried about is sharing things like valve grind angle, combustion chamber shaping, cam lift and duration. Hope that clears up my position!
Hope that helps,
Randy
Here are the numbers with comparisons to stock using one of the first heads we did - the numbers are higher still now that we've learned more.
They are stock, 1mm oversized, and 1mm oversized ported.
lift __int stk __1mm stk __1mm ported __exh stk __1mm stk __1mm ported
.050 __32.7___49.3_______51.7________31.0_____29.7_____ _44.7
.100 __66.2___82.6_______84.2________51.4______45.0____ __82.7
.150 __98.2___110.4______111.1_______76.9______81.2____ __113.6
.200 _127.4___136.2______149.4_______97.5_____106.9____ __137.9
.250 _153.0___160.1______176.1_______106.0____120.1____ __151.4
.300 _169.1___179.3______195.5_______111.0____126.9____ __158.6
.350 _174.3___182.3______205.8_______113.0____130.2____ __160.6
.400 _175.7___191.0______209.5_______114.5____132.1____ __162.6
.450 _175.3___193.4______211.0_______115.9____133.2____ __164.3
.500 ___________________215.7__________________________ _166.3
And pics of the porting and development:
Here are some of the flow bench shots:
If there are any other shots you would like, or info you think I could share, let me know.
The part I am worried about is sharing things like valve grind angle, combustion chamber shaping, cam lift and duration. Hope that clears up my position!
Hope that helps,
Randy
Last edited by RandyBMC; Nov 8, 2007 at 06:06 PM.
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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I am not responsible or do I care to herd anyone other than myself (and my kids - which are hard enough!). Nuff said 'bout that.
As for data, I will dig up some of the stuff we have posted in the past regarding flow bench numbers. I will share the following info in the meantime:
This is how we build our head, and I'll talk a little on the development as well. We start with the stock MINI head and flow bench it. We then do our own portwork, change the valve grind angles (which is a secret in itself), change the combustion chamber, throw on the new valves and deck the head then install the new camshaft. Once completed, it is flow benched again. We always do before and after comparisons on every head we build. When doing the development, we made more CFM with the first ten or so heads as we kept finding more and more little tricks specific to this head. We port, then flowbench, then port, then flow bench, then dyno.
We also took the very important step of driving the car with different set ups. The Mule ran with the first port, then the second port, then larger valves, then finally the new cam. We have several street cars we used for development as well. We also used the dyno - only as a tool to make sure the CFM matched a performance increase.
We have also looked at other heads done by other vendors - and I have never seen the need to use anything we learned from them. I certainly haven't seen all of them though.
I'll post more info shortly.
Hope that helps!
Randy
As for data, I will dig up some of the stuff we have posted in the past regarding flow bench numbers. I will share the following info in the meantime:
This is how we build our head, and I'll talk a little on the development as well. We start with the stock MINI head and flow bench it. We then do our own portwork, change the valve grind angles (which is a secret in itself), change the combustion chamber, throw on the new valves and deck the head then install the new camshaft. Once completed, it is flow benched again. We always do before and after comparisons on every head we build. When doing the development, we made more CFM with the first ten or so heads as we kept finding more and more little tricks specific to this head. We port, then flowbench, then port, then flow bench, then dyno.
We also took the very important step of driving the car with different set ups. The Mule ran with the first port, then the second port, then larger valves, then finally the new cam. We have several street cars we used for development as well. We also used the dyno - only as a tool to make sure the CFM matched a performance increase.
We have also looked at other heads done by other vendors - and I have never seen the need to use anything we learned from them. I certainly haven't seen all of them though.
I'll post more info shortly.
Hope that helps!
Randy