Drivetrain Just had my car Dynoed at AmD in the uk and got 239hp..
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,258
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From: Portland OR
>>You got exactly the same results (down to 0.1 whp) as what Mini Madness got in their own internal testing for both the intake and the intake/ECU combo???
>>
>>That's remarkable
Andy,
I think the point Bryan (MCSHP) was trying to make was that he tested, or presided over the testing, that Madness used for themselves. I was present at one such dyno testing. George from Madness dyno'd his car and then Bryan, George and I dyno'd my car with various intakes and exhausts.
R
>>
>>That's remarkable
Andy,
I think the point Bryan (MCSHP) was trying to make was that he tested, or presided over the testing, that Madness used for themselves. I was present at one such dyno testing. George from Madness dyno'd his car and then Bryan, George and I dyno'd my car with various intakes and exhausts.
R
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Davbret wrote:
That would be a remarkable coincidence if this was a dyno test conducted on one MCS in Colorado (???) that made the exact same hp gains as a different MCS in Florida:
I hope you can see why I am skeptical (combined with the two EVO chipped cars I know of that have actually been independently tested - and showed performance WAY worse than Madness/EVO's claims).
Andy,
I think the point Bryan (MCSHP) was trying to make was that he tested, or presided over the testing, that Madness used for themselves. I was present at one such dyno testing. George from Madness dyno'd his car and then Bryan, George and I dyno'd my car with various intakes and exhausts.
R
I think the point Bryan (MCSHP) was trying to make was that he tested, or presided over the testing, that Madness used for themselves. I was present at one such dyno testing. George from Madness dyno'd his car and then Bryan, George and I dyno'd my car with various intakes and exhausts.
R
I hope you can see why I am skeptical (combined with the two EVO chipped cars I know of that have actually been independently tested - and showed performance WAY worse than Madness/EVO's claims).
3rd Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 266
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From: Redmond, WA
I think arguing about this is pointless if the guys from Portland won't post their dyno graphs. I'm skeptical of any claim without a graph (from several people for comparison).
That graph from Florida looks pretty wacky to me
Let's see those graphs!
That graph from Florida looks pretty wacky to me
Let's see those graphs!
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,816
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
>>I think the only thing we can all agree is that the Iron Sheik could kick Hulk Hogan's ***.
I dont agree. Iron Sheik was a camel loving weenie. The Ultimate Warrior was um.. uh.. the ultimate warrior.
--
Cheese
I dont agree. Iron Sheik was a camel loving weenie. The Ultimate Warrior was um.. uh.. the ultimate warrior.
--
Cheese
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,258
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From: Portland OR
I've got others with the Madness intake, the BMP intake, the Quicksilver exhaust and the Magnaflow exhaust...and combos of either or. Don't have any MYSELF with the ECU change. That was done on George's car. Can't speak for Bryan though (MCSHP). Was just posting dyno chart as requested. 
I think I'm getting confused, Andy. Are you questioning the numbers of the EVOtech or the fact that someone in CO got the same results (within 0.1) as Renntech did in FL? I didn't sleep much last night and my brain hurts...but the first commute to work with the 15% smaller pulley was sure fun!
R
I think I'm getting confused, Andy. Are you questioning the numbers of the EVOtech or the fact that someone in CO got the same results (within 0.1) as Renntech did in FL? I didn't sleep much last night and my brain hurts...but the first commute to work with the 15% smaller pulley was sure fun!
R
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
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From: Lansdale, PA
I find it highly coincidental that the the "AS TESTED AT WHEELS" numbers for the "Mini Madness Stage I" and "Mini Madness Stage II" as listed on http://www.mcshp.org/data.html are EXACTLY the same as the gains shown on the MINI-Madness Website . Meanwhile, no dyno sheets have surfaced for this "independent" MCSHP testing.
Do you find that coincidental as well?
Do you find that coincidental as well?
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,258
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From: Portland OR
Well I believe that Bryan was only going to publish dyno numbers "as tested" when he personally did the dyno testing, or was a part of it if done by a tuner/manufacturer. Maybe since he was present for the ECU mod runs on George's car he felt comfortable using their claims. I dunno. That's my guess. 
R
R
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 49
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From: west palm beach
Andy, you are right it would be difficult for a car in Florida and Colorado to test exactly the same.
We tested Mr. Hernandez car again on April 4/4/03 to see at over 8
,000 miles and 5 months if there was a difference. And there was a slight difference. we got 170 hp at the wheels and 148 ft-lbs of torque. This was off about three horsepower and 1 ft-lb of torque from when the car was originally tested.
His car is a very good running Mini Cooper S. My personal car had 6 hp less and 4 ft lbs of torque less with the same options.
On another note we just finished a Mini Cooper S for the Gran Am racing for Sterling Mini in VA., built the car in about 6 weeks. Was not driven on a track till this past Friday, race was this Sunday, we finished 7th in our class of 18 cars and was the fastest Mini there. Hopefully with some fine tuning we will do better at the next race in AZ. Andy, maybe you can get someone to give you a car to build, we would love to see you on the track.
Keep up the good work in Philly.
Bob Brady
We tested Mr. Hernandez car again on April 4/4/03 to see at over 8
,000 miles and 5 months if there was a difference. And there was a slight difference. we got 170 hp at the wheels and 148 ft-lbs of torque. This was off about three horsepower and 1 ft-lb of torque from when the car was originally tested.
His car is a very good running Mini Cooper S. My personal car had 6 hp less and 4 ft lbs of torque less with the same options.
On another note we just finished a Mini Cooper S for the Gran Am racing for Sterling Mini in VA., built the car in about 6 weeks. Was not driven on a track till this past Friday, race was this Sunday, we finished 7th in our class of 18 cars and was the fastest Mini there. Hopefully with some fine tuning we will do better at the next race in AZ. Andy, maybe you can get someone to give you a car to build, we would love to see you on the track.
Keep up the good work in Philly.
Bob Brady
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
wrbrady wrote:
Thanks for the response. What was the reason again for jlm's car making less power with the Evo chip than without?
I am not in the business of building race cars or selling chips. I'm just curious about actual gains from mods.
BTW, congrats on the racing results! :smile:
_________________
Andy, you are right it would be difficult for a car in Florida and Colorado to test exactly the same.
We tested Mr. Hernandez car again on April 4/4/03 to see at over 8
,000 miles and 5 months if there was a difference. And there was a slight difference. we got 170 hp at the wheels and 148 ft-lbs of torque. This was off about three horsepower and 1 ft-lb of torque from when the car was originally tested.
His car is a very good running Mini Cooper S. My personal car had 6 hp less and 4 ft lbs of torque less with the same options.
On another note we just finished a Mini Cooper S for the Gran Am racing for Sterling Mini in VA., built the car in about 6 weeks. Was not driven on a track till this past Friday, race was this Sunday, we finished 7th in our class of 18 cars and was the fastest Mini there. Hopefully with some fine tuning we will do better at the next race in AZ. Andy, maybe you can get someone to give you a car to build, we would love to see you on the track.
Keep up the good work in Philly.
Bob Brady
We tested Mr. Hernandez car again on April 4/4/03 to see at over 8
,000 miles and 5 months if there was a difference. And there was a slight difference. we got 170 hp at the wheels and 148 ft-lbs of torque. This was off about three horsepower and 1 ft-lb of torque from when the car was originally tested.
His car is a very good running Mini Cooper S. My personal car had 6 hp less and 4 ft lbs of torque less with the same options.
On another note we just finished a Mini Cooper S for the Gran Am racing for Sterling Mini in VA., built the car in about 6 weeks. Was not driven on a track till this past Friday, race was this Sunday, we finished 7th in our class of 18 cars and was the fastest Mini there. Hopefully with some fine tuning we will do better at the next race in AZ. Andy, maybe you can get someone to give you a car to build, we would love to see you on the track.
Keep up the good work in Philly.
Bob Brady
I am not in the business of building race cars or selling chips. I'm just curious about actual gains from mods.
BTW, congrats on the racing results! :smile:
_________________
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 49
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From: west palm beach
Again, we are a tunner and not in the business of just selling "chips" RENNtech is well know for its Mercedes tuning, we have had our cars tested in most major magazines. Evotech is well know in Germany and also does tuning here at the RENNtech facuility. Currently we are working on a Mini for a Car and Driver test.
As for the car you mention, you might remember I asked you to send me a copy of his dyno results, which I never got. If he had talked directly to me I would have asked that he send his ECU back and we reprogram it. And than have it retested.
Not all cars get the same results, but all Mini Cooper S will see increased HP and torque with our reprogramming of the ecu.
Again best to you, if you are ever in the West Palm Beach area, we would love to show you our faculity.
As for the car you mention, you might remember I asked you to send me a copy of his dyno results, which I never got. If he had talked directly to me I would have asked that he send his ECU back and we reprogram it. And than have it retested.
Not all cars get the same results, but all Mini Cooper S will see increased HP and torque with our reprogramming of the ecu.
Again best to you, if you are ever in the West Palm Beach area, we would love to show you our faculity.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,258
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From: Portland OR
I dunno where the CO tests where from. MINI-Madness is in Portland OR. Bryan (MCSHP) and George (MINI-Madness) were dyno'ing George's car with the ECU before I showed up the day we did dyno tests. So I was not there personally, so I can't say. But FL to OR should be about the same, as far as elevation goes.
R
R
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
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From: Lansdale, PA
wrbrady wrote:
It sounds like you have a very impressive facility. If I send you my ECU and you reprogram the Flash ROM, why would that not be considered selling me a chip? If I get hold of a spare ECU, I'd be happy to send it you for chipping and see what results I get.
Have any customers posted independent dynos of Evo chip results?
Again, we are a tunner and not in the business of just selling "chips" RENNtech is well know for its Mercedes tuning, we have had our cars tested in most major magazines. Evotech is well know in Germany and also does tuning here at the RENNtech facuility. Currently we are working on a Mini for a Car and Driver test.
As for the car you mention, you might remember I asked you to send me a copy of his dyno results, which I never got. If he had talked directly to me I would have asked that he send his ECU back and we reprogram it. And than have it retested.
Not all cars get the same results, but all Mini Cooper S will see increased HP and torque with our reprogramming of the ecu.
Again best to you, if you are ever in the West Palm Beach area, we would love to show you our faculity.
As for the car you mention, you might remember I asked you to send me a copy of his dyno results, which I never got. If he had talked directly to me I would have asked that he send his ECU back and we reprogram it. And than have it retested.
Not all cars get the same results, but all Mini Cooper S will see increased HP and torque with our reprogramming of the ecu.
Again best to you, if you are ever in the West Palm Beach area, we would love to show you our faculity.
Have any customers posted independent dynos of Evo chip results?
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Davebret wrote:
I think this is an error on my part. For some reason, I ASSumed that MCSHP aka 911ETR had done the dyno tests in Colorado, not Oregon. Either way, it is remarkable to get identical gains for two different mods, despite the two different cars being across the country from one another, on different dynos, with dyno sheets only posted for one of the two vehicles.
_________________
I dunno where the CO tests where from. MINI-Madness is in Portland OR. Bryan (MCSHP) and George (MINI-Madness) were dyno'ing George's car with the ECU before I showed up the day we did dyno tests. So I was not there personally, so I can't say. But FL to OR should be about the same, as far as elevation goes.
R
R
_________________
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 49
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From: west palm beach
Andy, one other thought.
When you did the dyno, was the red line set at 6950 or did it go all the way to 7500.
There is always the possibility the reprogramming did not take.
Like you, we want our customers and our dealers to be happy and will do what ever it takes. We stand behind our products. We do realize that not all cars will get the same performance benifit, but there will be an improvement. We test on a daily basis, everything from the programming to performance gains with headers, exhausts, heads, cams etc. We are a full service shop. So we are not just sending out "chips". The testing is done first in Germany and than we do testing here in the states
The RENNtech web site is http://www.renntechmercedes.com
EVOtech germany is http://www.evotech.de
Evotech USA is still being developed. http://www.evotechusa.com
When you did the dyno, was the red line set at 6950 or did it go all the way to 7500.
There is always the possibility the reprogramming did not take.
Like you, we want our customers and our dealers to be happy and will do what ever it takes. We stand behind our products. We do realize that not all cars will get the same performance benifit, but there will be an improvement. We test on a daily basis, everything from the programming to performance gains with headers, exhausts, heads, cams etc. We are a full service shop. So we are not just sending out "chips". The testing is done first in Germany and than we do testing here in the states
The RENNtech web site is http://www.renntechmercedes.com
EVOtech germany is http://www.evotech.de
Evotech USA is still being developed. http://www.evotechusa.com
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
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From: NY NY
Since I have been mentioned:
I did send the dyno graphs to Renntech and to George at mini madness, graphs that showed no improvement with the evo chip in my car vs the same mods on a stock car, but w/o the evo chip. I also backed this up with results from 5 or 6 1/4 mile ET's which also showed no demonstrable improvement over a equally equipped car w/o chip, even using the same driver in each car.
My conclusion was that the chip power claims were not being realized, even though my car would redline higher (7500).
george agreed to credit me for the chip cost, and when I had the Qauife installed, I had the dealer flash the chip with the newest MINI firmware, (ver 3.1, or something) erasing the traces of evo in the process.
At a later date, we re-dynoed the car at Helix and had very similar results to the car with the chip.
Then news surfaced that with pre-3.1 firmware versions the evo chip would not work (even though the redline limit part had worked).
Then I fitted the pulley and later made a deal directly with Renntech for a new ecu mod in exchange for some part trades. That went in last thursday. My car has only been on the road since Sunday and seems to run fine and strong, yet to be dynoed. I also made another secret mod or two, so the power made won't be a direct comparison.
for the record, my last hp was about 161, with pulley, w/o chip. If evo's chip really does anything, I had better be getting close to 170 or more, especially with my other mods.
I did send the dyno graphs to Renntech and to George at mini madness, graphs that showed no improvement with the evo chip in my car vs the same mods on a stock car, but w/o the evo chip. I also backed this up with results from 5 or 6 1/4 mile ET's which also showed no demonstrable improvement over a equally equipped car w/o chip, even using the same driver in each car.
My conclusion was that the chip power claims were not being realized, even though my car would redline higher (7500).
george agreed to credit me for the chip cost, and when I had the Qauife installed, I had the dealer flash the chip with the newest MINI firmware, (ver 3.1, or something) erasing the traces of evo in the process.
At a later date, we re-dynoed the car at Helix and had very similar results to the car with the chip.
Then news surfaced that with pre-3.1 firmware versions the evo chip would not work (even though the redline limit part had worked).
Then I fitted the pulley and later made a deal directly with Renntech for a new ecu mod in exchange for some part trades. That went in last thursday. My car has only been on the road since Sunday and seems to run fine and strong, yet to be dynoed. I also made another secret mod or two, so the power made won't be a direct comparison.
for the record, my last hp was about 161, with pulley, w/o chip. If evo's chip really does anything, I had better be getting close to 170 or more, especially with my other mods.
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 116
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Yes Andy we saw the same numbers. At that point the Cars being tested were at the same lvl of mod. We did the runs several times and yes we had witnesses.
Where did you get Colorado? Stop assuming please! I live in Seattle and sometimes go down to a dyno that I picked in Portland to do testing. Madness agreed to come along and share some of the cost. Thus we have some of the same dyno sheets.
IRONIC isnt it that we got the same overall gains but its true. What are the chances?!
Seems that you should talk to JLM and get the facts before making blanket statments about crappy results. I must warn everyone that since JLM uses Helix on that mustang dyno the results are going to be a bit different. Not wrong but different. This is due to the fact that the dynos are different types. Dont even attempt to compare between the two because they could be as much as 10 hp+ at the wheels different. If the only thing that convinces you is testing on your own then you should do another dyno run for a base and send away to get your ECU done then test it yourself. If there are problems I am sure Rentec or Madness with compensate you back. I have not had any issues with these folks and it seems that even though JLM did they are making it worth his while.
BTW you cannot get a spare ECU as I understand it. The ECU is coded with your VIN and will NOT opperate in another car.
I am not sure what it's gonna take Andy but gee wiz bro, I am not sure why we always have to get into these lvl's of discussions.
If you have some suggestions about helping to test and give folks accurate info PM me. I can always use some help. We can always try to get you some pieces and then you can dyno it and give results.
Where did you get Colorado? Stop assuming please! I live in Seattle and sometimes go down to a dyno that I picked in Portland to do testing. Madness agreed to come along and share some of the cost. Thus we have some of the same dyno sheets.
IRONIC isnt it that we got the same overall gains but its true. What are the chances?!
Seems that you should talk to JLM and get the facts before making blanket statments about crappy results. I must warn everyone that since JLM uses Helix on that mustang dyno the results are going to be a bit different. Not wrong but different. This is due to the fact that the dynos are different types. Dont even attempt to compare between the two because they could be as much as 10 hp+ at the wheels different. If the only thing that convinces you is testing on your own then you should do another dyno run for a base and send away to get your ECU done then test it yourself. If there are problems I am sure Rentec or Madness with compensate you back. I have not had any issues with these folks and it seems that even though JLM did they are making it worth his while.
BTW you cannot get a spare ECU as I understand it. The ECU is coded with your VIN and will NOT opperate in another car.
I am not sure what it's gonna take Andy but gee wiz bro, I am not sure why we always have to get into these lvl's of discussions.
If you have some suggestions about helping to test and give folks accurate info PM me. I can always use some help. We can always try to get you some pieces and then you can dyno it and give results.
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
I hardly consider testing at Helix independent.
>>[quote]Andy,
>>
>>I think the point Bryan (MCSHP) was trying to make was that he tested, or presided over the testing, that Madness used for themselves. I was present at one such dyno testing. George from Madness dyno'd his car and then Bryan, George >>I hope you can see why I am skeptical (combined with the two EVO chipped cars I know of that have actually been independently tested - and showed performance WAY worse than Madness/EVO's claims).
>>[quote]Andy,
>>
>>I think the point Bryan (MCSHP) was trying to make was that he tested, or presided over the testing, that Madness used for themselves. I was present at one such dyno testing. George from Madness dyno'd his car and then Bryan, George >>I hope you can see why I am skeptical (combined with the two EVO chipped cars I know of that have actually been independently tested - and showed performance WAY worse than Madness/EVO's claims).
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Like I said before, after I get the next ECU mod for the Pulley I will test again here locally with both cars. We can compare the numbers from the first run we did on Car #2 with the ECU.
So if you are skeptable about sheets and numbers just hold your horses. We will do base line then go back for Mod run. Anyone want to fly up? Anyone Local want to join in?
Car #1 Mod's
Intake, Exhaust, Pulley (with ECU next test)
Car #2 Mod's
Exhaust only + ECU
We are not trying to hide anything here guys.
So if you are skeptable about sheets and numbers just hold your horses. We will do base line then go back for Mod run. Anyone want to fly up? Anyone Local want to join in?
Car #1 Mod's
Intake, Exhaust, Pulley (with ECU next test)
Car #2 Mod's
Exhaust only + ECU
We are not trying to hide anything here guys.