Very well put Mini2go. I agree with everything you said. Somehow this post has turned Pro/Anti Randy, and to be honest, Randy's been pretty quiet. I hope for everyone's sake, he doesn't keep that way long, because you're right, he does provide a lot of good information. :smile:

 

>>>>>>See why people are skeptical; we aren't getting all the data.
>>
>>>>And yes, there certainly are other tuners/sponsors/manufacturers posting here on the web other than Randy. I'm a member of MINI-Madness team, Jeff from Alta posts, Matt from Cooper Flags, the one and only jlm of P&D, Tracey from Diamond Racing.....
>>
>>
>>So are you saying there is a financial motive behind the skepticsm?
>>
>>
>>j

No, not at all. I have no financial stake in MINI-Madness. If anything it's a financial boom to hear such claims of big power. It proves it's out there for the taking, allowing more possible income for the tuners.

My original skepticism was based almost entirely on the fact that he was posted corrected figures for bhp. That's very unusual. Most everyone post the fwhp figures for the sake of comparison. When I originally saw the 239hp I thought he was refering to fwhp not bhp and that was why I found it so unbelievable. And only that. Never said any cuts to the poster, the mods or the AMD dyno. Just thought it was off without pointing a finger. So please don't take my words and translate them to be finger pointing. That never, ever occured. Thank you.

R

 

>>>>So are you saying there is a financial motive behind the skepticsm?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>j

I apologize. I was just being a little sarcastic since it seemed a majority of the doubters were tuners, sponsors or manufacturers that will be direct competitors of Hartge.

In the end, I could really care less about the numbers. It's the perfomance stats that matter to me. 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc.....

BTW, is it possibile for a car with less HP/torque to be faster?

 

>>BTW, is it possibile for a car with less HP/torque to be faster?

To a degree, yes. But faster than what (a similar car with more power or say a humvee?) and in what situations (straight drag or twisty autox)?

Negating driver competence (which can make it faster regardless) and assuming similar cars in similar situations - If the car is lighter, has less unsprung weight, and better wheel-to-ground configuration (suspension/tires/etc.) it can be faster than a car with more power. There has to be a point of dimishing returns here, and I have no idea what that would be.

...Now that's just what I've learned in the months I've been a member at MCO. I have no technical background to get into more detail!

_________________
<a href="mailto:jwelsh@pittstopmini.org"&gt ;John Welsh</a>, VP/IO


<a href="http://www.pittstopmini.org"><img height=139 width=180 src="http://www.pittstopmini.org/images/p...uot;</a>

 

 

You may have 239 on paper but with the mods mentioned you definatley do NOT have 239 at the wheels and it would have to be 250+ for me to take notice anyway...lol

 

Can't we all just...


let this thread DIE!!!

 

For the love of all that's good in the world, people!

This thread was about one person's dyno run. He doesn't even know, as he's stated, what the parameters of the dyno were, and I don't think he was trying to throw a ringer at us - he was just a guy that was excited by what he got from the shop he took his car too and wanted to share it with us.

I've deleted about half of what I wrote to remain political, but I've spent a lot of time just trying to help people out, making decisions and choosing the right product. I sell stuff from whoever has the best line to fit what someone's particular needs are. I will be the first to admit when something doesn't work, and I'm definitely not trying to force any products down people's throat (if you ever think I am, let me know!).

I will answer the question about the wavy dyno - I've been thinking about that a lot lately.

I think the reason I don't see that here is because I'm at 6000'. Even though the dyno compensates for density, the fact remains that I don't produce as much boost as you guys do at sea level. That means that my car wouldn't detonate where as yours might with the increase in pressure. What that equates to is the car detecting knock, retarding the timing, then increasing the timing until it detects knock, then retarding the timing, and so on. This doesn't hurt anything, but it robs power. Superchips didn't fix it from the power I have gotten, and I'm still working on it stateside, but if APR can't figure it out (and the primary reason I am using that as a first - well third or fourth - avenue is because of the cost of the Hartge software and the fact they are loathe to break it up), I will research other avenues until we get it right. The car ends up using the knock sensor instead of following a program. I believe that retarding the ignition slightly and leaning the mixture a little bit will provide significant gains by allowing the ECU to follow an ignition profile instead of bouncing off the knock sensor wiht the increase in boost.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy
720-841-1002

 

The car ends up using the knock sensor instead of following a program. I believe that retarding the ignition slightly and leaning the mixture a little bit will provide significant gains by allowing the ECU to follow an ignition profile instead of bouncing off the knock sensor wiht the increase in boost.
>>
>>Let me know if you have any other questions.
>>
>>Randy
>>720-841-1002

Randy,
Maybe be we should start a new thread about this subject... The extra fuel is a cushion for knock. Taking it out on a daily driver probably isnt the best or safest idea. Also, if your car doesnt knock now and you think it would at sealevel, then your correction factor might be off. no?


--
Cheese

 

>>The car ends up using the knock sensor instead of following a program. I believe that retarding the ignition slightly and leaning the mixture a little bit will provide significant gains by allowing the ECU to follow an ignition profile instead of bouncing off the knock sensor wiht the increase in boost.
>>>>
>>>>Let me know if you have any other questions.
>>>>
>>>>Randy
>>>>720-841-1002
>>
>>Randy,
>> Maybe be we should start a new thread about this subject... The extra fuel is a cushion for knock. Taking it out on a daily driver probably isnt the best or safest idea. Also, if your car doesnt knock now and you think it would at sealevel, then your correction factor might be off. no?
>>
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>

Cheese,

The extra fuel is used for cooling, but at the mixtures we are seeing, as long as the timing was retarded, I think going to an A/F ratio of 12.5 or so to 1 would be very safe - remember that most of the new systems are running in the 14/1 neighborhood, and that even detonation protection on turbocharged cars usually is dumped at around 12/1. The key will be to check the timing curves, make sure we aren't getting detonation, and balance the fuel accordingly. It will take significant dyno development.

The correction factor can't be adjusted to allow me to simulate more boost, so the correction factor is as close as possible. That's one of the points I tried to make earlier - you need to compare cars on the same dyno with the same conditions, or it really isn't helpful. The dyno is a tool, and with that in mind, the one we use here is a very helpful part of the big picture. It doesn't necessarily help when saying how much power the cars make comparitively. All that said, I think the correction factor is pretty close, as we've seen similar numbers from other cars in similar tunes around the country (on Dynojets).

In summary, the ECU tuning will take a lot of research to get it right, and that's something we've just embarked on.

BTW, give me a call if you want to talk about the Perfect Power - I have put it on hold until we hear from APR on the possibilities there.

Randy
720-841-1002

 

The concern I have is the terrible heatsoak this engine configuration experiences, which I think will be hard to safely tune around on a daily driver.


--
Cheese

 

You have to tune around it. It is a much more eloquent solution compared to allowing the knock sensor to decide what the ignition timing will be. I won't know until we figure out the code and look at the curves, but I firmly believe that 11/1 and even as rich as 9/1 is way too much fuel. Even without hitting the knock sensor, the stock numbers for A/F ratios have been that high (fuel wise).

The other issue is the cooling that you eluded to. We aren't talking about coolant temps here, they are fine. What I see as a solution is changing the supercharger method or the intercooling method - be that a front mount air-air of the same size, a larger air-air top mount, or a water-air intercooler. This would be a part of the optimum package. A pulley, an ECU change, and an intercooler change. This is a safe an efficient method to consistent horsepower.

It's all still being developed (and do I wish that part was over already!), but the potential gains have already but seen in some places.

Randy

 

Cool Randy, just seeing if your noticing the same as me! i should be able to get some advantage there

 

Angrybeats,

Your car rocks! And better yet, your video making capability looks professional, where can I get the video? That track-lapping coverage is sweet! Don't let the nay-sayers get to ya, at worst you undoubetly have one of the most powerful "non-commercial" backed Minis on the planet! More vids please!

Kevin

 

Just to follow up, as this will be my last post on this issue.

Let me get the controvercial part out of the way first...

I only brought up the point about Randy because I have seen a similar situation arise on other forums. One person from a certain company who has paid his dues to be a supporting vendor posts a lot and while he doesn't necessarily promote his company in every post, he does have a lot of links etc. in his signature. What happens? He convinces those who reads his threads that what he sells is the best, which in turn creates this general feeling that most anything similar doesn't work as well or is of poor quality. It's simply business. There isn't anything illegal or wrong, just unfair to be honnest. For those larger companies who can't spend all day surfing web forums to promote and answer questions for their customers, it's unfair to pay to have your banner across the top of the page, when you are being slammed by another vendor and being unable to defend yourself. This hasn't been apparent here yet, and I doubt it ever will at MCO, but I only warn others that it does, and can happen.

This has nothing to do with Randy's How-To's and all his help he provides. This is the only site that has GREAT people sharing invaluable information and research they do on the MINI for their own information. It's like a class on MINI's at this place, and it often gets very detailed which is lots of fun to read.

It's better everyone gets this out of their system now, rather than later when it gets much much worse.

 

I'm a lurker on this forum mostly but I'll throw in my two cents. I'm a member of Nissan SE-R mailing list and have been so since 1996. We used to have active members that are vendors too like Randy. What happened there was eventually they were chased off into seclusion because of umm non-technical people doubting the experience and knowledge of the vendors. The vendors are still there but they only talk to certain members and do not actively contribute to the mailing list anymore. Also, because of this we lost a lot of knowledgeable people too. These people are still available to the community but you have to track them down and not everyone knows who they are. I hope this doesn't happen to you guys. We're now a full fledged club but I feel like there's a division between the people in the know and those that aren't. It wasn't always like that. Take care of your knowledgeable people like they've been taking care of you or you may end up in the same boat.

Mena
Cooperless

 

I didnt mean to start another war chaps, sorry :???:

I'm off to Santa Pod in the UK Tomorrow do do a Qtr mile so will post some vids and stats the good thing is that they also provide 0-60 0-1**ft times etc..

 

Mena - good point.

mn_angrybeats - great! I'm looking forward to it!

 

Hey Angrybeats,

I'm just about to get the Hartge upgrade, and I have a question. Do you notice any of the low-end squirreliness that was mentioned in one of the articles that compared Hartge to the Graham Goode?

Thanks in advance!

Joe

 

I guess this discussion about HP and Dyno's just doesnt end. I think that the bottom line is you cant just say I got 239hp and be done with it. This is complicated because dynos differ for one another, tuners can adjust correction to get what ever they want.

Next time I hit the dyno I can get a base line then change the correction numbers and get 400hp at the wheels without modding anything.

This is why when you have a company do a mod then dyno it themselves its hard to take seriously. Maybe you have a car that has 239hp and maybe you dont. If you really want to know go find 2-3 other dyno shops and do 2 runs each and make sure its the same dyno brand and type.

I do agree that it seems a bit in left field considering the lvl of actual mod. Unless they are using larger crank pulleys with smaller supercharger pulleys or have a serious stage IV head and CAM. There is only so much you can do with the ECU and tapping about 25 extra is about the limit. Either you have a monster from the factory or there is something in your kit that is not being advertised.

Everyone wants to hit this mark so bad with this lvl of mod, no wonder eveyone is on the flame.
I think that 239 is almost there with out a doubt but getting there with an ECU, Exhaust, Pulley and intake is very fishy.

I for one hope you do get 239 because that means that somone is making decsisions in there products that no one has yet. But if you are the only one making those claims then your gonna have to back it up with some substantial proof.

 

MCSHP,

Do you have any independent dyno testing to back up your MINI Mania Intake and ECU claims on your website? If not, why do you have MINI Mania's own numbers listed as "AS TESTED AT WHEELS"? Shouldn't you offer the same treatment to MINI Mania that you do to, say, Rumphorst?

 

>>MCSHP,
>>
>>Do you have any independent dyno testing to back up your MINI Mania Intake and ECU claims on your website? If not, why do you have MINI Mania's own numbers listed as "AS TESTED AT WHEELS"? Shouldn't you offer the same treatment to MINI Mania that you do to, say, Rumphorst?

Andy,

I dont have anything listed as "as tested" from Mini Mania on my site. You are confused with Mini Madness it seems.

The numbers I do have listed are my own numbers. I am waiting for the Stage II+pulley ECU upgrade for the pulley this next week. I will post all the dyno plots at that time.
Currently I have sheets that need to be converted on BMP Intake, Madness Intake, Madness Stage I, II ECU.

I decided not to post any data on Mini Madness until our arranged agreement is complete.

If you would like to make a donation I could do allot more testing and post the data faster.

 

Ah, my mistake, I was thinking of MINI-Madness. I'll rephrase:

Do you have any independent dyno testing to back up your MINI Madness Intake and ECU claims on your website? If not, why do you have MINI Madness' own numbers listed as "AS TESTED AT WHEELS"? Shouldn't you offer the same treatment to MINI Madness that you do to, say, Rumphorst?

Would you mind showing us YOUR dyno plot with +13.3 and +26.0 whp, respectively?

 

>>Ah, my mistake, I was thinking of MINI-Madness. I'll rephrase:
>>
>>Do you have any independent dyno testing to back up your MINI Madness Intake and ECU claims on your website? If not, why do you have MINI Madness' own numbers listed as "AS TESTED AT WHEELS"? Shouldn't you offer the same treatment to MINI Madness that you do to, say, Rumphorst?
>>
>>Would you mind showing us YOUR dyno plot with +13.3 and +26.0 whp, respectively? ]

Maybe you didnt read my last post.

The numbers I do have listed are my own numbers. I am waiting for the Stage II+pulley ECU upgrade for the pulley this next week. I will post all the dyno plots at that time.
Currently I have sheets that need to be converted (from paper) on BMP Intake, Madness Intake, Madness Stage I, II ECU.

I decided not to post any data on Mini Madness until our arranged agreement is complete.

If you would like to make a donation I could do allot more testing and post the data faster.

 

You got exactly the same results (down to 0.1 whp) as what Mini Madness got in their own internal testing for both the intake and the intake/ECU combo???

That's remarkable

_________________