A bit of REAL info on the Madness head since Camelpilot seems to think our head causes a lot of trouble.

Every vendor here has their cylinder heads worked by some specialized company typically an engine builder.

We luckily have at our disposal one of 2 engine builders in the country that specializes in Toyata Formula Atlantic engine building. They specialize in building nothing but high output 4 cylinder engines many of which make over 400 HP normaly aspirated!

When we started work on the MINI heads we took 2 cylinder heads and chopped them into 8 seperate units. 8 versions later we have 2 versions of our head that we believe are some of the best out there.

After the head work was complete we proceeded to the engine dyno for further testing. What we discovered, as most already know, is that porting alone didn't achieve the gains we desired so larger valves were in order. At a minimun all of our heads have larger inconal exhaust valves. Larger inconal intake valves are available, but we recommend this only for track use as low end torque will suffer a bit. At high rpm's though the intake valves make a big difference.

Our heads have many competition miles on them and there have never been any issues to date with any of our heads. Steve Diniz has over 10000 track miles on his head and has won several enduros, BMWCCA races and is currently competing in the NAMCC. NNearly has about 80000 hard miles on his head and was the class winner on the One Lap of America in 2004. We have competed successfully against 400+hp cars in the Car and Driver Magazine Superfour Challenges in 2003 and 2006.

There are many other examples out there of our heads and other parts in action that we believe speak volumes. If anyone wants to discuss the details of these and any other parts never hesitate to call, were here to help

 

We actually have one here that were comparing to the stock unit. I will post charts hopefully next week sometime. Should be interesting

 

Interesting indeed. My first thought when I saw one in the flesh was " class action " . I look forward to your findings.

 

One could infer that the back and forth that was occurring yesterday and part of today is somewhat analogous to a firefight (with words instead of bullets). Hence the term VietNAM.

 

What caminifan said!

 

Really and how do you know that's what they are doing?

Mikey

 

referring to the factory JCW head...

sacrilege!

you are bashing authentic crap now...

 

enough with the crappy crap... Take this crap to your own crappy thread you chickencrappers!

 

I am actually looking forward to when George posts this info. Interesting may end up being an understatement.......

Mark your calendars, for on July 11, 2006 I have boldly predicted that the JCW head thread will warp into one nasty and contentious bugger.

 

If this is your response to what I said, then you obviously didnt get it.

I'm sure your guys head is great.

 

It's OK - I got both of them............

 

in the interest of fairness to kev, don't use his thread to argue. Try to keep the posts relevant.

 

Yea...I predict the sun will rise tomorrow

 

But in the East or the West?

 

I don't know if this will help much but here's what I did.
Using something like Microsoft Excel i made a spreadsheet and made a chart comparing heads in such categories as valve upgrades, porting, etc...

It really made the comparison a lot easier. Until I realized I don't really know what I am comparing. Who here really does? Honestly? It's easy to front on the net but I am man enough to admit I don't know all (pretty close though ). I mean who here can honestly say "this is what I am doing with the car" these are the gains i want (comparing low to high end for example) so in turn I need larger exhaust valves or bigger ports or whatever.

I bet of the 30ish people who have posted in this bickering war maybe 5% actually have the mechanical knowledge of how altering the functions of the head will coincide with their particular project. I know I don't so I shut the hell up do some research and learn.

I think moreover this thread needs info on what heads do. How altering things like the valves or the ports will affect the performance and from there people can decide which head suits them best. I don't think we are comparing Coke to Pepsi as they are both pretty much the same drink and do the same job. As someone stated previously...some heads are meant for street use others for track. I believe this could become a relevant and resourceful thread if treated as such maybe check out www.howstuffworks.com

 

You can get wrapped around the axle (or, maybe it is the camshaft...) trying to track valve size, intake path, etc. A better approach (from a consumer perspective, at least) would be to conduct dynomometer tests on each head in isolation (the only variable from stock being the head). With the dyno test results, you can see the performance (hp & ft/lbs) increase that is due to the head as well as the area under the performance curve. A race head will produce very high results relative to stock, but the result will be very peaky (high output confined within a narrow range). Conversely, a really great street head will produce higher output than stock, with the best ones having a greater area (than stock) under the performance curve.

The reason for my request to see the dyno chart for the Cosworth head was to be able to see if the claimed 216 whp output was concentrated in a narrow band, or whether the improvement due to the head was across the performance curve. 216 whp translates to about 248 hp at the crankshaft which is about a 50% improvement over stock. If the 50% improvement is available throughout the performance curve (from say 2,000 rpm to 6,000 rpm) and doesn't require exotic fuel (91 octane pump gas would be ideal), that would be a compelling reason to purchase the Cosworth head over say, the Webb head.

Hopefully, Peter will at a minimum, post the dyno chart on the M7.com website.

Hope this helps.

 

well said caminifan. Anyone can fudge dyno results, but like everyone else i'd like to see the characteristics of the power curve.

 

A few thoughts…
One thing is certain: many people on NAM tend to favor dynos and their resulting numbers. Rarely in all my years of racing, from karts, to motorcycles, to cars, have I seen any such requests because the dyno results don’t really mean much. Just as with software it doesn’t always come down to shear power. We were also looking for drivability and reliability.

No matter what stage of my career I was at, a new go fast part would arrive. We wouldn’t dyno it but rather track test it to see if it helped improve lap time. The same principle applies today with most all race teams and manufacturers that I am aware of.

As I posted earlier, choosing a head comes down to deciding what you want (street or track) and how much do you want to spend. To help in the decision process a knowledgeable engine builder should be consulted. Just keep in mind that there are many choices available including cams (stock, Shrick, and custom profiles), valves (stock, competition style, and materials), springs, lifters, porting, polishing, compression, etc.

 

makes sense to me...... I like my 3 d's Dyno, Drive, Decide.... dyno info will get you in the ballpark but not at the plate......the dyno will only give you some basic info..... if you test it with the same rig you are planning to use that is better than a "jig" that may not be your set up.... I keep harping on this but please understand these parts are not all synergistic and what you have in your mind may not be at all what you get with your rig even with fresh factory supplied dyno sheets (for all kinds of reasons) driving a car with a similar set up to what you aspire to is the best idea...... a thought.... advertise on NAM that you are interested in part a, b, or,c.....see who has them and if you could take a ride in their car... some folks might let you drive..... I would.... hopefully they are close by and you can drive there..... this time and money is well spent rather than put out over $2K to get a head mounted for instance, and be disappointed...... after you experience the car....decide....

when I first bought m Mini,.... Joe at RSpeed took me for ride in his car which had a pulley, exhaust, intake, and sway bar.....I knew instantly that I wanted that for my car...... if you were considering a Helix TC I think one of Eric's test rides would probably convince you....rather than a dyno sheet.....the dyno sheet should only get you interested..... (don't buy speakers from spec sheets....make sure you listen to them)

just some houghts from a guy who has spent some money.... some wasted and some not... learn from my mistakes/experience

 

A dyno willl in NO way give you any insight into reliability. However, a dyno WILL give you insight into how the head will fit your desired use. Use the dyno to get in the ballpark and then do drivability testing of the subset that fits your desired use profile.

Well yes and no. Track times are influenced by factors that are not due to the head in and of itself. Things like suspension tune come to mind as factors that can affect track time greater than the impact of one head vs. another. Also, what if the head is being used for a mix of street and track (daily driver that gets taken to the track once a month)? Deciding on a head that does well based on track time, most likely will not be the best choice for those daily commute runs to the office and running errands, and, and, and....

You defintely can get as much performance as you are willing to spend money to buy. I still maintain that a dyno test result can be a very good data point in the overall decision process. Maybe not an exclusive decision tool, but certainly on the short list of tools used to filter candidates for a final decision.

 

I don’t know if you were trying to but you are making my point about how NAMers feel.
I was doing my best to point out that side by side comparison of head dyno results will not yield much except in the case of stock versus “cookie cutter” heads. Customs heads come in too many flavors and power is not everything and actually the last thing to worry about.
I was also trying to point out that you should discuss with someone knowledgeable all the options available: compression, valves, cams, porting, polishing, bowl work, lifters, etc. Head work, with installation, can be very expensive.

 

I never try to figure out how NAMers feel. Too many variables there....

Presumably the Cosworth head as sold by M7 is pretty much the same from one part to another (thereby qualifying as a "cookie cutter"); so a dyno test should be instructive/informative.

Agreed. One-off efforts are done with specific objectives in mind. I am more focused on a head that will meet the objective of daily driver drivability with maximum area under the performance curve (wide and deep) on 91 octane pump gas.

 

Let me know when you find one, with a cam to match.

 

And if you find one before I do, let me know! I am not saying that a head/cam package such as I am looking for exists, just that I am looking for it.

 

I'm meeting with a head guy next week to have him do just such a head for me. Don't know if I'll go with a stock cam, one of the current ones or a custom grind.