Geez, that would have been great post(long boring a&&)meeting reading

 

Sorry, there is a big difference. If I want to see the differences between Coke and Pepsi, I can simply try them both subjectively; they are cheap enough to be able to do that. With a head, its something you only want to be purchasing once; and that one purchase is a quite expensive one when you compare it to other modifications.

Again, a very good point - whenever you do a modification, you start with an understanding of the concept, and then you look into each particular option you have. If you don't have the facts at hand, how can you make a subjective decision?

I have not seen any bashing in this thread at all.

No-one has suggested that Cosworth does not know what they are doing when porting heads. On saying that; if you look at say, air intakes. All of the vendors making intakes know what they are doing - but some still outperform others.

Was this aimed at me? I am definatly buying, so it is very relevant.

Since when is asking questions when looking at buying a product nit picking?

 

Is picking nits like popping bubble wrap?
It can be relaxing just maybe not for the people around you.

 

I think the Coke example was maybe taken down the wrong path by me. When the original coke example was made, it was in reference to their "secret recipe" and was used as an explaination of why M7 isn't running around and telling everyone what 10+ technology is in a detailed manner.

I simply offered that Coke and M7 rely a lot on word of mouth advertising and the trust that no matter what product comes from either company, it'll probably be a good product.

Somehow this all got twisted into how a Coke is 0.00013 the cost of the head... which... well... what the hell does that have to do with anything?


Have you called Peter or Randy? Peter puts his phone numbers at the bottom of every post. I bet they could tell you a little more about the head over the phone. I'm sure the reason they don't post tons of details on NAM is because that would be similiar to throwing a proverbial clay pigeon of business into the air... all the "ney-sayers" would take random and wild shots at it.

I'm not a M7 fanboy nor do I even own any M7 products (more of a Helix fanboy if you care). It just seems that every thread that M7 hops into about any sort of product, we always get a bunch of people hopping around on pogo sticks wearing cowboy hats yelping "Dyno! Dyno! Dyno!" and taking random shots at how M7 products must suck because they don't post detailed information on a web forum.

A web forum... honestly.

Kevin, I'd suggest not doing all of your research on teh intar-web. Rely on old fashioned ways and give both Webb and M7 a call before making your decision. Especially such a decision that bores that big of a hole into your pocket book.

 

Fine. Everyone agrees that posting numbers here does nothing but invite more scrutiny.....even though the main *ahem* "naysayers" have packed up and left NAM......so how about following the lead of some of the other vendors and posting some measurement on the website?

Nobody's yelling dyno or bashing anyone here and nobody has stated M7 sucks. Kevin is planning on buying a head and wanted more info. Casual surfing of the sites Don posted reveal that just about every manufacturer posts some sort of number relating to their cylinder heads, be it flow, hp, torque, etc.

An observation was made that before spending $1800K + installation, it would be nice to be able to get some idea of performance benefit.

Seriously, some of you need to take the time to read each thread before you start accusing posters of bashing.

 

Threads like these are why I call this place VietNAM.

 

Kevin, there are several people on this site that have aftermarket cylinder heads.

- Ingsoc has the Cosworth

- SpiderX and I have the CHR/Webb

- jlm had the Endyne

- Steve Diniz, I believe, has the Madness head.

A search of the other vendors will reveal who has what. Most people should have no issues repsonding to a PM regarding their impressions of each product.

 

it's just a freakin' head! Does anyone really think that M7 is doing a scam where they aren't providing a product for the price? Way I see it, MCS head work goes from about $1k to well over $2k. M7 is middle of the pack there. Most head vendors partner with a head specialist. M7 has partnered with Cosworth. As far as I can tell, M7 has several very happy customers that have posted their experiences, and none saying that the head was any less than expected. Does anyone really have any reason to think that M7 is selling an infirior product? Um, no! So WTF?

As far as numbers go, if they really matter much to you, get the part and measure it yourself. Sure you can get a representative flow sheet from some vendors that shows flow improvements, but that's not everything either. And HP claims are very dependant on what else has been done to a car.

What a lot of this comes down to is that Randy is selling a head with a cam for a decent price. Others sell heads and cams too. Figure out what you want, figure out how much it costs from the various vendors, and based on your relationship with the vendors in question, choose where to put your money!

And others don't post numbers as well. Endyn doesn't open the exhaust as much, claiming improved low RPM scaveging due to higher gas velocities. But there's no graph..... Anyone want to dump on them? So WTF, get over the secret sauce arguements, and choose your vendor, and get one! Life will go on.

Matt

 

I have read the entire thread as well as the links Don posted, despite your ridiculous sarcasm. Maybe I'm just too closely tied to the webbiner, but I always have a tough time believing everything I read on it, since people can pretty much say whatever they want.

I was merely suggesting that if I was going to spend that much money, I'd want to start a business relationship with all companies with which I was thinking of purchasing from. You can't create that relationship over the web.

 

THats a nice list up top.... here is my analysis of the heads:

The Cosworth head is very nice in white.

The endyne head is made by old people for old people.

The madness head causes alot of trouble, but is reliable.

The webb head guzzles the gas and will eventually run out of it, but it's most likely the fastest road racing head in the U.S.

 

So am I missing something here? Where's the bashing? And where's the sarcasm? I asked if you had read the entire thread - if you have and have see evidence of bashing, please correct me - maybe I'm the one who missed the post or post(s) in question............

You're right, you can't create a relationship over the web........and I agree that you shouldn't believe everything that you read .

But I don't believe everything that is told to me over the phone either.

When I was researching cylinder heads, I phoned several vendors and had them forward dyno sheets and flow results along with the valve and cam specifications. Like I stated earlier, with the exception of the dynos, most, if not all of the vendors had that information already posted on their websites.

And, without a trace of sarcasm, what's a "webbiner"?

 

That's coming perilously close to bashing, my friend..............

 

This tech 10 hocus pocus that everyone is gushing about is just this. They decked the head 10 thousandths to get more compression so the lack of real porting is made up for it in compression ratio. That's it, nothing ground breaking or proprietary.

 

Hm... then I looks like we do agree on all points. I agree there is no bashing, just an over-abundance of doubting and questioning.

I like how you researched for your head, and (cross my fingers that it isn't soon due to failure) if I need a new head or other expensive part, I'll probably do the exact same thing you did.

 

You're right. If you like Larry more than Randy, buy his head. If Pilo's head is cheaper than Thumper's, that should get the nod.

I'm not following the reasoning Matt. No one is dumping on M7. Kevin had some relevant questions, so why the hell is everyone dumping on him? The only bashing going on here is directed at the people who were trying to find out more about the product.

Unless Endyne has made changes to their website, do they not go into at least some detail regarding the work that goes into their product? Why is it considered dumping and bashing to ask that a vendor make this information accessible?

Look, Randy and Peter have already said that they'll provide any relevant information to interested parties who contact them..........so there is no longer any meat left in this thread - everyone should be more than satisfied.

 

Next time you're out in NorCal PM me and you can drive the car. My neighbor has a JCW, and it's a trip to drive them back to back. Next to the pulley, I consider the head the best mod I've done to the car.

 

"Hi Guys,

Due to some damage recently suffered by my head, I'm looking at the not nice $$ wise route of buying a new head. I've looked at several, and some general observations:

(Please note, I'm in Australia so I have to pay silly shipping costs, and non-core return costs whatever happens) "

Kevin... interesting thread YOU started!! LOL I am in the Head business ( NO>> NOT that kind!! ) and all the above is cool.. even the dissing on everyone else .. that is what happens when opinions get together... cool??

I am doing heads for the MINI! and I am going to dyno the car.. list its mods.. and then use those numbers!! I have found out that all the TECH.. is rightious to a TECH. kind of mind.. most, really just want to know HOW MUCH gain on THEIR car for the money... and as stated above IF some one does offer tech.. it is picked apart by others... I have learned thru the may years of dong this.. it is better to tell the results on a MINI.. the mods it has and bottom line!! as we all know EVERY engine is different.. set up.. Computer.. blah blah... that is why , I feel, there is all this bad talk!! My car.. His car... their car... ect!! cool?? AND that follows with my stuff!! I feel the differance is.. I dont blow up figures !! NO REASON to !! Also I can pretty much do the heads to meet your needs.. Runner CC's, combustion chamber size , valve size.. ect ect.. no a set of cookie cutter heads ( NOT saying there are any of those out there.. just making a point) I do a base N/A head and a base S/C head.. and they are pretty much what MOST guys want!! However other than parts cost.. the custom heads are just adding a tweek here or there and adding the different valve size or quality!! I agree with the huge port statements.. not all but some.. esp on a N/A car!! but with the S/c car and all the add'l bost...? area for consern ( the dyno will tell) It has shown on almost ALL forced air engines will bennifit thru a larger port.. how large??? That is where the R & D comes in and that is usally a secret to the porting shop.. and is their key to being better or worse than others.. dont you agree?? But some times it is the same work with JUST different phrasing...!

I will do a head for you see your pm!! If not then that is cool.. I will be out of ConUS for 6 weeks coming up.. so ship the suckers out...

Just me........................................

Thumper
PS just the facts.. I really am sorry IF I did stamp toes.. it ISNT my intention !! Cool??

 

I actually spent 20 minutes writing and then re writing and the re writing finally gave up.....

there really is no way to do this but to get both heads.. put them on your car dyno...drive...decide...(note the 3 "Ds")

 

ENDYNs offering for the MCS (headwork, intake manifold, supercharger, and pistons) :

http://www.theoldone.com/components/...ead_modifi.htm

 

Wow this thread is honestly anti-M7.

Let me say something here, as a NAMer that has alot of experience...

Yesterday when Peter was referring to talking to his customers, one of them was me. He spent honestly more than 45 minutes explaining install, shipping and pricing. He also spent alot of time getting a product they don't produce that is a rare commodity, even directly from the manufacturer, getting it to me by Friday, and all for a price that can't be beat. I am more than happy with M7 Tuning. They are the easiest vendors to deal with that I have experienced.

I Give M7:

I love how you guys say "I don't believe everything I read on the internet" but what Randy and Peter are trying to avoid is just that. What good is it to post numbers if you have already said that "The butt-dyno is known for it's inaccuracies" or whatever. All they would be doing is opening themselves up for more criticism by somebody who clearly is so biased they wouldn't buy their product anyway. Webb has posted their dyno numbers on their site, and yet you guys seem to believe everything they say, even though you guys don't believe anything posted on the internet.

Using sarcasm to take pot shots at M7 is bashing, though it isn't extreme, it is still against Site Guidelines:
So that means calling their technology "hocus pocus" and "magic" is bashing. The 10+ Technology is Cosworth's just for future reference. Why would M7 tell everyone what it consists of so you all can go do the same to your Webb or Madness heads? It's pretty stupid to believe they should.

I'm not an M7 or Webb "fanboy" as I have been confused to be in the past. I have stuck up for Webb in the same way. I know how they feel because I'm currently in the retail and supply business. I know how they feel. I won't stay in this job however, because hearing people b!tch all day long, and then trying to make them happy, isn't for me. I would love to see all you guys that hide behind your computer screens and act like "If I was in your position I would post flow specs and dyno numbers" become a vendor and do half as good a job as M7 or Webb is. I would then absolutely love to see how you guys would react to something you have put effort and time in to meet your high standards, be called "hocus pocus" or "magic technology".

I would really doubt Cosworth and M7 would risk the respect they have gained over the years by putting out a head that would be anything less than up to their very high standards. Think about it...

I do have a recommendation for the M7/Cosworth team though:
Patent (which I think you are already) or something the 10+ Technology so you can comfortably tell everyone about it without worrying they'll do it themselves. If they did then do it themselves you can sue their asses into homelessness and enjoy a nice vacation house somewhere. I would however agree with them that maybe you should release some numbers on your site, not necessarily hp, but flow, even though they probably won't believe it. I know you guys are very conservative as to your claims and that is good. More importantly keep up the good work you guys are doing, I'm really happy with what you have done for me.

"I don't discriminate, I hate everyone, equally."

Cheers!

Mikey

 

edit: this post was worthless with or without pics

 

I just might take you up on that! Thanks!

(oh.. and if you note the post directly above... this is the stuff I was referring to which is borderline bashing / just being a ****)

edit: oh sure... there goes my example of a ****.

 

While I have a lot of respect for M7 (and for that matter Cosworth) - with all due respect, shaving a head to increase compression has been around as long as the internal combustion engine. To get an (enforceable) patent one has to have something that's at least a little bit original.

 

I am just curious if anyone ever bothered to ask these questions , flow , valve size etc. about the JCW head ? If anyone has actually seen one in peson as I have, I think you would agree that those would be some interesting answers indeed.

 

im sorry but whats that remark supposed to mean? and wat does it have to do with anythign at all? are u suggesting theres something wrong with vietnam?
dont r