Peter, you're saying there is no magic, but you still have not shed any light on the "10+ technology"?

Sorry, but when I'm spending this much money on an upgrade, I want to investigate it fully!

 

have to agree with kev here.

But i'll also agree that hp quotings are a recipe for disaster. If M7 (or any other tuner for that matter) were to release dyno results, people just complain that dynos aren't accurate, or that they rigged the results. So i'm with M7 about them keeping the dyno figures to themselves.

 

if there's any difference in the heads, you really should tune the car to the head to really see what it can do.... I wouldn't hold my breath!

And it's also true that this isn't new technology, 4 banger 4 valve heads have been worked on for much longer than the Mini has been around.

And all the companies offerings are a bit different....

Matt

 

This is the point i was making earlier. Matt just said it more clearly
Just like the headers on a car work better by being tuned to the cam's timing.

 

I do appreciate you wanting a full disclosure of the features that we offer
on the Cosworth head, The reality is that we will not disclose the particulars
of the 10+ Technology as it makes the head better then the competitions.

I know that you like to drink a cold Coke once in a while and guess what,
the CocaCola company will never divulge the secret recipe. And if you don't like it buy a pepsi..

peter
Team M7
562-608=8123

 

I understand M7s reasons for not wanting to give away the "secret recipe"... but how many people are currently running the 10+ head?

Coke is popular because people like the taste and many people have tried it. Word of mouth marketing.

Granted there is a huge difference between a coke and a head (unless in the **** industry... then they usually go hand in hand?), but you could try and track those people down who have the 10+ head and get their opinions on it.

 

I posted the impression from the pro driver....

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

Comparing Coke to M7 doesn't work...

Keep in mind Coke's original "popularity" had a lot to do with the Cocaine they had as an ingredient

Addicts make good repeat customers

Wait a minute... maybe that comparison isn't too far off

 

Sex Drugs and M7 Parts......

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

A Coke costs about $0.20 (USD) per can; the last I checked, M7 was asking $3,519 for its head as part of the Cosworth Stage I performance package. If a consumer doesn't like the Coke, they are only out $0.20. If the M7 head is a dud, that same consumer could have bought 17,595 cans of Coke (more with discounts for volume purchases and adding the labor to install the head) had they not invested in the head.

To net it out, by refusing to provide even rudimentary information on your head, you are forcing the potential consumer to trust you. If they have to decide between your head where they are faced with a "trust me" position and say, the WMS head, where they are provided some basic information about the head, including dynomometer results that WMS was able to achieve with the head, they may feel more comfortable going with WMS.

Indeed, the original post in this thread was about just such a scenario. Kevin, it would seem you have your answer.

 

Matt, we aren't talking about some special alloy (unobtainium) that has chemical catalyst properties that magically adds 40 points to the octane rating of the fuel-air blend the instant before combustion occurs....

The variables between one head and another are usually the volume of the combustion chamber, the shape of the combustion chamber, the shape of the passage to and from the combustion chamber, the volume of air the heads will flow over time and if you factor in the camshaft, the timing of the opening and closing of the intake and exhaust valves. You might add in some special sauce (as in a proprietary thing that creates intake turbulence or speeds exhaust exit or reduces emissions), but that usually will show in an improved test result.

Carping about dyno result differences is basically just talk. If the tests are transparent and similar results can be achieved with similar conditions, then the claim is validated.

How many of the modifications to your car did you make on the strength of the vendor telling you to trust them and believe the claims they were making? You started with some level of understanding of the underlying technological approach and then made a decision as to which way you wanted to proceed.

 

I think you are in need of some new info. the Cosworth head is on special at this time for $ 1599.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=72695

As for trust yes trust is something that is important but that trust is this situation is two part . One is that you trust Cosworth to know what they are doing as they are the ones that took our specifications and did ALL the design and testing as well as all of the machine work in their facility. These are the same people , machines, computers etc. that build almost all off the Cosworth racing engines with the exception of the F1 motors. If you can't trust them I have no answer for you . As for the second part trusting M7, all we are responsible for is the delivery of the part at a good price and we are certainly doing that. I hope this answers the trust issue.

Randy
m7 Tuning

 

Bashing is clearly what your all about....... (read it uppside down)

The coke comparison was a joke, nothing more nothing less, but you used it to bash M7....

Many people has posted very positive reviews, which you obviously chose
to discount........no let me refrase it, Ignore.

We have dyno charts, but we were to busy today taking care of customers needs and ship products (a lot) to take time and scan the charts that I promissed last night.....which you again discounted.

So seriously, you believe Cosworth doesn't know what they are doing
when it comes to porting a head....honestly

peter
Team m7
562-608-8123

 

Okay, instead of 17,595 cans of Coke, then the consumer is out 7,995 cans of Coke. You might also want to update your website with the new information.

Does your distribution contract with Cosworth prohibit you from publishing rudimentary data points on the heads? Things like valve diameters and flow rates? How about a dyno test result of the Cosworth head with nothing else added to confuse/obscure the test results?

 

"Okay, instead of 17,595 cans of Coke, then the consumer is out 7,995 cans of Coke. You might also want to update your website with the new information. "

Now that is much more reasonable

"Does your distribution contract with Cosworth prohibit you from publishing rudimentary data points on the heads? Things like valve diameters and flow rates? How about a dyno test result of the Cosworth head with nothing else added to confuse/obscure the test results?"

With regards to the valves they are the same size as stock in the head in question here so that information is readily available. As for the other questions they were the ones that did the testing we are not in a posistion to publish it. Hope this helps a bit, Thanks for the support .

Randy
m7 tuning

Randy
m7 Tuning

 

Peter, trust me, I am not bashing. If I wanted to bash your company and/or your products, I wouldn't have suggested that you update your website to reflect the special pricing for the Cosworth head.... I am asking some pointed questions, however.

I also, made a joke about how many cans of Coke someone could have purchased - can you imagine the caffeine rush someone would have had from even 8,000 cans of Coke?

Maybe discount, but definitely not ignore. Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable.

Peter, I am never going to bash you for taking care of customers before posting on NAM.

I don't recall any statement I made regarding Cosworth not knowing what they are doing when it comes to porting a head. I do recall asking for some objective measure of the effectiveness of the magic that Cosworth performs on their head. Something like flow results, or that dyno test result. And don't get me wrong, if it takes another day (or even a week) to get to a breathing point where you have got your customers taken care of, the customer should be your first priority. But at some point, it would be really nice to have some objective measure of the superiority of the Cosworth head.

 

Caminifan isn't bashing you nor is he questioning the integrity or experience of Cosworth - you're beginning to develop a complex............

I agree with you that this Forum isn't always the place to post numbers. More often than not, once they are posted, everyone begins picking the methodology of achieving them apart.

Most of us understand that hp figures will vary per application - how about some flow bench numbers? Hell, don't even bother to post them here - your website would be fine.

 

Whenever I see threads like this I am reminded that there really are people like nepolean dynamite's kip "chatting online with hot babes all day".

Just let it go. As much as I would like some info, they are not offering it. Who cares. You're probably not buying either way. Now go eat all the chips and train for your cage fight.

 

Very funny...

You see offering numbers here ain't worth it, you will find faults and other problems where none can be found. And CFM only goes so far as velocity
is far more important for MINI engine IE. you can hog out the ports to the point of it flowing like a fire hose....and totally suck for driveabillity.

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

Which is why a dyno test result cuts through all of the dueling claims - what meets the road (or the wheels to the dyno's rollers) is what matters. If the Cosworth head with stock valve diameters will produce 219-ish whp (hey, even 200 whp (if the gain is similar across the entire powerband) from just the head alone would be compelling in my book), then, something special is happening with the head. All the arguments in the world about valve diameter, valve seat cross section, etc. become academic. The head produces the numbers that it produces.

When you post the dyno test results, the best place to post would be on your website. Presuming you do post the dyno, I would appreciate at least a follow-up post in this thread so I could go to your website to check out the posting.

 

For clarification - if the valve size hasn't changed, what specifications could you provide? CFM? Valve composition? Cross section? Seems like porting is the only variable, no?

 

GEESH! A vendor comes here to offer support and you guys nit pick him to shreads.

NAM can be a cruel place at times!

 

You know,..... I ask myself......does Cosworth need the money so badly that they would compromise their reputation to sell a very limited number of heads into the MINI market...... think about the upside potential for them.... one motor probably nets more profit than a slew of heads..... (I edited out a whole paragraph on specs etc)

 

edit

 

Well, I'm actually considering the head package, along with a cam.

In my experience with M7 purchases, they stand behind their products.

And they are there when you need them, a HUGE plus, IMO...

Haven't found that to be reliably the case with a couple of other prominent vendors, so even if the dyno showed head XYZ to be a bit better than M7's I'd have to lean towards the guys who'll answer the phone and/or call you back.

Of course, YMMV...