In a current issue of turbo magazine they are also doing a MCS project and they dynoed at 170.4whp with a monster flow intake alone. They say more upgrades coming soon.

What do you guys think? Has anyone read the article?

 

I haven't read the article, but it sounds to me like a typical case of a cold motor. The Monster is one of the intakes that does not include the heat shield, so on the dyno with the bonnet open, that comes into play as well. I have a VERY tough time believing that number, and I'm curious to know if it was repeatable.

Randy

 

Hahahahahahhaha!!! Oh geeze, that's a good one.

Put down the crack pipe and back away slowly. Considering that about 146-147fwhp is the standard baseline MCS dyno, getting 23-24 more horsepower at the wheels from an intake is the most ludacris thing I've heard in many a day. I would *maybe* be willing to accept that they are talking about brake horse power and not front wheel horse power. That would be going from 163bhp to 170.4bhp.

R

 

They are using a non production Mini Cooper S that has a totally different ECU. This car cannot be used as a comparison to the production Mini's. Its not even street legal after the first year.

Evotech looked at the European cars pre-production ecu and it was a different animal.

 

Sorry, guys I'm not too techy so I might have miss read the article. Thanks to websites here is the link to the article, then maybe we can make sense if it.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0305tur_mini/

 

Ok, since they had crazy dyno readings and were going from a baseline whp reading of 162. So the total claims of improvement are in the ballpark of what others are getting. It's jus the starting figure they are using that throws everything off.

R

 

I think they are using the patented Honda Civic Dyno... you know that one thats makes "mAd h0rSEpoWer Y0!" After all it is Turbo Magazine!

 

I just love unrealistic "baselines".

 

>>I just love unrealistic "baselines".

 

You are right, there is a Mini s running around CA., that had 155 at the wheels stock. They sent my company the ECU to see if we could get any more out of it, but nothing we could do.

The magazine that had the car was asked by Mini not to race other Mini's with it. That is hear say, but in my tuning of Mercedes, it would not be the first time a manufacture put a ringer out there.

5 to may be at most 10 hp on an intake in a really good car would be all we have seen. Lately there seems to be up to 10 hp difference from car to car, only thing I can think of is different cam timing from the factory.

 

Before you read this this is just IMHO...So don't get pissed.....:smile:

 

Nobull, we're just being skeptical.

Nuttin' wrong with that especially when many others have done much more extensive testing with multiple products.

Besides, their primary job is to sell magazines.

170 Wheel horsepower? Downhill with a tailwind.

-Jim

 

Mine pulls 150 WHP with just the intake; that seems just about right and reasonable.

There are many reasons to get wacky numbers and 170 WHP is really wacky

 

>>Before you read this this is just IMHO...So don't get pissed.....:smile:

I'm an engineer, and I have never seen an engineer running a dyno ... anywhere. Most automotive performance companies that have "engineering" in their title do not actually have any engineers on staff. As an engineer, what is your explanation for why the vast majority of MCS dyno stock between 140-150 whp on a wide variety of different dynos, while a few have stock numbers that are very similar to stock CRANK numbers?

 

First of all I think you need to finish your sheetrock job in the garage. And if I was to send out a structural inspector you would fail right away. Dry wall screws are to be every 6" at the seams and 12" on the studs. Your's are not....FAILED!!
Now back to the question as to why the difference....And if you are an engineer, what kind are you? Me, structural and mechanical engineer. You?? First, I never said that I did not disagree or agree with the findings. I simply said before you start to critisize the findings try to find out how they were recorded, that's all. Lots of folks think just because they did some mod's and dyno'd the car they are now an expert. Me, in no way am I an expert at this. Yes I did a few mod's and had mine dyno'd but when I did it a week later the numbers were slightly different. I just like to have an open mind and research it before I bash the findings. The answer to the question is very obvious to me and I have explained it numerous times on many threads. The answer is air temperature, relitive humidity, air volume, and a controled enviroment meaning fans or A/C blowers, this will make any dyno result differ. The region where you live and I live will record two different readings every time. Ask any crew chief for any motor sport and they ALL will say the same thing. " Weather plays a major part in racing". Not just rain or wind but temp,humidity,sea level all plays a part. Right or wrong this is what I have found out and you don't have to be an engineer to find out this mystery of WHP and Dyno's.

 

Hey Nobull,

Just curious, what sheetrock in Andy's garage? I didn't see any pics?? Just wondering.

 

Andy,

When you are done, can you come on over to my house and give me an estimate on doing the drywall in our kitchen? Thanks!

 

>>Before you read this this is just IMHO...So don't get pissed.....:smile:

I'll just bet you think that the Motor Trend Car of the Year is based on some objective criteria other than the amount of advertising the winner was willing to pour into the magazine that year.

 

>>
>>I'll just bet you think that the Motor Trend Car of the Year is based on some objective criteria other than the amount of advertising the winner was willing to pour into the magazine that year.
>>
>>

You know I should just keep my mouth shut when it comes to being optimistic. You guys keep dreaming of the HP and dyno your MINI's. Race them and when you end up with either a blown engine or a broken transmission it will give you another thread idea. " I blew up my MINI on the track". And to Nuvolari, whatever the hell that means?? Motor Trend is an advertisers magazine as you stated. Do you think that MINI poured $$ into it to get the rave reviews it received?? What about Playboy?? Do you really think you can get one of those centerfolds?? For now on I just going to sit back and read and wonder....Hard to keep my mouth shut when there is so much to say. I will stick with the customizing end and you guys have fun going as fast as you can and running the crap out of your cars.


Randy it is under his signature listed as MY MINI.

 

I understand what you're saying (questioning our immediate dismissal of #s inconsistent with our own), but you have to acknowledge that Dynos are unreliable beasts. We all have seen dyno runs vary by 5hp one way or another for the same car and dyno and that leaves us scratching our head.

What most of us (definitely me) do is use it as rough benchmark, and once you get a large enough sample, you have a pretty good idea of what the real number is.

When a dyno starts spitting out baseline numbers that are 10 or 15hp greater than everyone elses, my immediate assumption is that the dyno is off--not that the car is actually putting out that kind of power. Pretty reasonable I think. (And Turbo Mag's numbers for the relative increase are right in line w/everyone elses.)

Btw, the sheetrock thing is funny as hell!

Jeff

ps: And yeah, cars differ from the factory. I know a certain motorcycle manufacturer that sometimes gets the timing wrong. Correcting the set-up to factory specs yields real HP gains!

 

Nobull,

Thanks for pointing out the sheetrock - do you do drywall? I need to have some finishing work done in the basement

I agree that it's frustrating sometimes trying to wade through all of the dyno info. I think we straightened out what happened with the Turbo mag numbers - it was pre-production ECU differences.

Dynos should really be used for tuning, not to tell your buddies how much hp you're making, or how much a specific tuner can get you. It is a great tool, but it is not the bible of performance. There are many factors to consider, and the dyno is just one of them. The best part of the dyno is that if you have several runs at each stage of configuration, you know if you are headed in the right direction or not. It is also helpful (just about necessary) in setting up ECU tuning. That said, the first question most folks ask when they call about a certain mod is how much hp does it make. As long as you have apples to apples comparisons, that's fine. But I think the best way to loook at dyno numbers is as a trend. Does the part trend up or down - from there, the numerbs are only good for comparison.

Hope that all makes sense.

Randy

 

Well said Randy....Thanks

 

Hehe, okay here's some answers. I have a Bachelor's Degree in Mechanical Engineering, and also have a Master's Degree in Business Administration. I have worked as a Development Engineer for a Tier 1 automotive supplier and can go to a few different car dealerships and put my hands on parts that I designed (well, I designed the tooling and oversaw production to my company's spec). These are stupid, boring, insignificant parts, but they are mine. :smile: I have a great understanding of what goes on in bringing a car to market. The amount of testing and paperwork is astounding, these words still make me shudder - PPAP, QS-9000, APQP, 8D. I can't imagine a non-turbo vehicle manufactured today whose output varies even 5% from its siblings on the assembly line. People get fired for things like that. Look at the lawsuits and resulting actions by Ford (SVT Cobra), Mazda (Miata), and Hyundai (everything) because their outputs were too low by a much smaller percentage.

The garage isn't mine - it belongs to my boss, he's too busy writing software to paint his garage.

Nobull60,

You must have studied Statistics, yes? What jumps out at you when you plot a histogram of stock dyno numbers that have been posted here? Are outliers statistically significant?

I agree that the dyno is most useful as a tuning tool (that's why I like to think of my car's performance gain in percentage terms). That said when I see numbers that are completely out of line with logic and the rest of seemingly-similar vehicles, I call BS.

 

I agree with you both randy and andy, i also want to add to randy statement that dyno's are most helpful on the indvidual doing the dyno, meaning i put my car on the dyno, as it is posted hear on this forum, but my intenet is not to get in to the number values indicated on my dyno graph , but more importanatly the shap and smoothness of the power and torque curve, and the reasons for those diffrent shapes the dyno plots shows, richness, tuning, and many other variables even uncontroable variances such as valvetrain stress in upper rpm, valve float etc.. of course any one can put their on a dyno and get huge numbers, but they could be eaten alive by a car that has significantly less peak hp, but much smoother and broader powerband, asnd to add to the fact that randy is absoluty correct in stating that the dyno is a tool to show where and how much your improvement is giving or hurting you, so a car that is being tuned on one dyno needs to stay on that same dyno, for true correct info as far as that goes, of course i could take my car to some other dyno and get more and less power just because they are different dynos!!!!! if we were all trying to have a true pissing contest on who makes the most power or broadest power band we all would have to use the exact same dyno, and to be even more precise at the exact same time, to have the exact same dyno, same temp, same baraometric pressure,etc, they could not even be back to back for the temp may change, or humidity, i think i have well explained my point, but the dyno is a great tool, but it is just that a tuning tool....