Hi all,
I finished testing the Alta flow-through prototype. As Jeff promised, I have the data to share with anyone who wants it. The whole report is big, and included

• Themal dispersant coating.
• Clean vs Dirty stock IC.
• Stock, one version of the Alta TMIC, and the flow through.

To make a long story short, the prototype showed about a 5 peak HP improvement with good gas, and a bit of an improvement with crappy gas.
It works by having much less back-pressure, dispite worse thermal efficiency.

The entire report is rather large, if you want a copy, e-mail me at

mattr@ix.netcom.com

I'll send a copy to anyone that's interested.....

Matt

 

Can we get numbers on the efficiency seen? How much less?

I don't imagine that the decreased efficiency could be due to configuration alone, since I don't believe that the resistance to flow behind the unit is any higher than that below the stock I/C. I'm imagine that resistance to flow through the unit is more likely... Is the core thicker? [and/or] Is there a difference in the size of the fins and air passages through the core?

Props on the presumably sweet testing!

 

What is this alta prototype you are speaking of? A new intercooler?

Garrett

 

Stock was 64.2% at red-line with a standard deviation of 2.4%
Flow throgh was 54.5% with a standard deviation of 2.2%

The pressure drop of the flow through was about 80% of the stock IC.

Remeber this is a prototype. So the results will be used to further optimize the unit.

Here's a photo of the units.....


Matt

 

so how does the stock compare against alta tmic?

 

With good gas the stock was better, with CA 91 the TMIC was better. But I didn't replicate the power gains others have seen, FWIW..... There's a bit of a mystery here....

Matt

 

Sorry for being somewhat ignorant on your data, but is there a simple/straight foward answer to how much more hp that a clean Alta intercooler adds compared to a clean stock intercooler at redline?

 

No.

Sorry, but the way our ECUs work, that's what it comes down to.

Matt

 

What unit is that on the front right hand corner?

Garrett

 

drobnx - what do u mean by better? ie better temps, better flows, better hp?

From what i know (not much) bigger i/c's moreorless supposed to increase i/c efficiency (ie cooling).. not really aimed at increasing hps (directly like in the case of a pulley)..

 

front right hand corner is altas prototype i take it

 

the "flow through" design that Alta announced in this thread....

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=56802

Matt

 

SCs increase airflow (hence the name Forced Induction), but they aren't perfect. Compression gasses heats them up, and hotter gasses are less dense. Even if SCs were perfect, the gas would heat up.

Ours is a Roots SC, and that's good because it's affordable, but it's bad, because as they spin real fast, they heat of the gas more than even the ideal case.

So you have an IC.... They cool the gasses, and a perfect one would cool it to ambient tems (for ones cooled with ambient air) with no pressure drop. But the ICs we use aren't perfect either.

There are two numbers that charecterize IC efficiency, one is the thermal efficiency (how much of the added heat is removed) and the other is the pressure drop.

Why does all this matter? Because the car burns 02 molecules, so you want the most of them in the cylinder, to create the most power. This is what creates all HP.....

So it doesn't matter if you get more 02 in there via higher pressures, or lower temps. (this isn't exactly true, but it's a good starting point).

So if the SC raises the temp of the gas from 300 to 400 degrees K, and doubles the absolute pressure, you don't get double the molecules, you get 50% more molecules, (it's proportional to the absolute pressure divided by the absolute temp). If you give up 1 psi to get rid of 75 degrees K, then you've gotten 78% more air in compared to 50% more air without the IC.

This is good.

That's the idea from ICs, and anybody who says ICs don't make power doesn't understand how boosted cars work.

If you want to find out more about this stuff, there are a couple of good books referenced in the reviews section.

Matt

 

See the original thread for all the discussion...

Matt

 

Ahhh I forgot all about Alta making some other IC's! I just sent you email requesting the data! Would it be hard for you to sum it up on this thread, i.e. give a little bit more numbers say the average temps on all units and the prototype?

Garrett

 

The thermal dispersant coating is good for about a 1% increase in charge density.

An Oil Catch Can is good for about 1% increase in charge density over a dirty IC.

The prototype made about 5 more HP with 100 octane, and 2 more HP with 91 octane.

The stock IC made about 5 more HP with 100 Octane over 91 octane.

The version of the TMIC I tested had a bit worse performance than stock with 100 octane, a bit better with 91 octane, but the deltas were within experimental error.

The prototype has a bit worse thermal efficiency (about 55% vs 65% for the stock) but only about 80% of the pressure drop.

HP measurements were had about a 2.5 hp standard deviation, so numbers between two configuration that are less than about 4 hp are of little statistical relavence.

CA 91 octane gas really sucks.....

Matt

ps for all the stuff I looked at, I did 47 G-Tech runs!

 

Oh here is the big question! When can we see something like this on the market? Any ideas Funk Master Matt?

Garrett

 

You have to contact Alta for that information. I didn't think the design would work at all, so the results surprised me. I think that I got the testing honors because I'm a BiM-COM tester, and Andy (from Ross-Tech) just ran out of time.

Matt

 

Well I am reading over the data as we speak, sometimes it is good to be wrong! Good to see some new designs coming out and helping us achieve the most out of our cars! I do like the design a lot though. Only concern by looking at it and not know the numbers is it would take longer for the air to flow through the IC then it would for a stock IC.

Garrett

 

the flow through felt a little snappier. I think it's because of the reduced back-pressure, but I had no way to quantify it. Would make sense as the resonance was more pronouced.

Matt

 

matt - good info to read about i/c's! i guess it was st00pid for me to say it doesnt increase power directly but the stuff u posted is more or less what i was leaning towards.

so the stock i/c is better than alta tmic with good gas? i.e. 98 or so octane?

 

Lets hope that does not lead to any flaming! For anyone who wants to have a good read and see the numbers, email matt to request the data! You might be surprised what you read!

Garrett

 

And others that have tested have found different results.

I was running 100 Octane from a local 76 station for the high octane tests.... But what's really needed is for one that's tested and found better results to do that, then replicate my method, and see if there's something in the testing methods or what.

So, what I did wasn't a total end-all of IC evaluations, but it does say that there's

1) Small benefits from coatings.
2) Small benefits from OCCs.
3) There's merit in the flow through design.
4) CA gas sucks.

And it raises some questions about the efficacy of more traditional TMICs. But if you search on the subject, you'll find a lot of people who have found benefit as well. I'm just not one of them, and it's an open question as to why.

Matt

 

To me, it is not worth the money for an upgraded IC. If I were to spend that much on a bigger upgraded IC, i would go the route of front mount!

Garrett

 

I spoke to a guy at Bell Intercoolers a while back about the "front to back" ambient flow intercooler such as the Alta prototype. I explained to him the dimensions of the factory IC and how it is set up in the MINI with the ambient air going north-south and the charge air going east-west. The dimensions I gave him for the stock IC were about 11Lx6Wx2H. I explained to him that I would want a front to back ambient flow core about 3H(give or take depending on where the inlet and outlet were welded on) x11Lx6W. He said that I would be cutting down the surface area of the stock IC by half, which would not make for a very efficient IC. With the stock IC being roughly 11Lx6Wx2H, the 11x6 being the surface area the ambient flows through, if you reduce that down to the ambient flowing through 11x3 or even 11x4 it won't be as efficient as a IC that has ambient flowing through an area of 11x6. I know you can probably fit a bigger core in between the SC runners, but not big enough to make any real difference. Granted, I like the idea of the ambient air flowing front to back through the IC, it just looks like it would be a better design, but with the space limitations of the MINI, I just don't think it will make enough difference to justify what it will cost.