So how could I do the MTH from california? Sit with them on the phone while I do my dyno run?

 

I think that this is the best arguement yet. I'm with you.

 

There is a wonderful program from Professor David Zarefsky from Northwestern University called, Arguementation: "The Study of Effective Reasoning" It helps to sort some things out in these threads...... then go have a beer....or two....or three.....with a chaser....... maybe then you can sight in your Leupold.

 

What is needed is a ECU Shootout.

 

I agree with you but I think to be "conclusive" it would need to be done with several cars with different levels of mods.

 

I can appreciate this point, Andy raised it earlier. HOWEVER everyone is assuming that OBX ripped it off. We do not know if OBX licensed the manufacturing/rebranding rights from SuperSprint. When this subject matter was raised earlier by Andy, I emailed Supersprint and got NO reply. It could be that they didn't, it could be that they did, and it could be that they did & don't even want it to be known.

I respect the view point but it is unsupported.

 

The UNIChip behaves deterministically if, for a given internal state, a given set of inputs results in the same behavior every time. I can't say this for certain but I would be willing to bet that it does in fact operate in a deterministic way.

Mark

 

Someone here expressed that they had spoken with either SuperSprint and/or BMP. I recall the response being one of disapproval. I have not validated this with my own inquiry as the expressed sentiment made sense. While I'm aware of agreements to remanufacture and rebrand product, I can't imagine SS accepting such terms that would allow another to sell their design at a 1/3 of their retail cost.

If indeed the OBX is an unauthorized copy, SS might not get back to folks on such inquiries, at least via email. Many people want confirmation that the item is a copy, because if so, then they will buy it!

OBX sells through distributorships, and they will certainly not know (or care maybe) about such dealings. OBX the company has for contact information, on their website, no physical address, or phone number. A fax number and email address are it. Typical of such companies...

If I have time, I'll call a contact at BMP/PROMINI next week. Sorry for the OT guys!

 

If there's no patent protection in place, copiing and selling for less is called competition. Otherwise the only brand of jeans anyone could buy would be Levis! While I appreciate the respect for the work that went into the SS header design, if they didn't protect something in the design, they are the ones that opened the door for the competition. They may not like it, but that's the way capitalism works.

So OBX bought one, measured it, and started selling it. Sucks for Supersprint, but is good for the marketspace as a whole. While the quality isn't as good (I know this first hand) maybe it will make the standard manufacturers think twice about putting a $900 price point on something like this.

So Tony, I usually agree with you, but on this one, "dibbs on the money cause I made it first" just doesn't work.

Matt

 

"So OBX bought one, measured it, and started selling it. Sucks for Supersprint, but is good for the marketspace as a whole. While the quality isn't as good (I know this first hand) maybe it will make the standard manufacturers think twice about putting a $900 price point on something like this."

I respectfully disagree. Competition is your design vs my design,.... not my design ripped off and made cheaper. Enzo let Dr. Porsche work out the kinks of mid engine but when Enzo built his mid engine years later, it was not an exact copy but made cheaper.

 

That's not the law. If there is no protection, there is no protection. Look at Crescent wrenches. Only one has the brand Crescent, but they all look the same. You can find examples like this all over the place, probably even in your tool box.

I'm involeved in invetion and IP protection in my field, and while you may not like it, if something is put in the public domain, it's fair game for anyone to make a buck on. We may all chose to buy whichever one we choose, for whatever reason. Sometimes I go cheap (OBX header is an example) sometimes I buy from the higher priced sales channel (like getting my SC ported by M7, because I like to help the smaller Mini producers, as opposed to going straight to Stegemaier at significantly less). Whatever, they are both legal and valid.

Look at generic drugs, that we all buy, to save signifcant $. The IP protection runs out, and suddenly there are lower cost alternatives. That's just the way the market works, and that's the law.

Matt

 

Matt,

I am fully aware, I have been in marketing a long time,........ I know how the market works....need no lectures...... I have witnessed and been affected by patened suits...... You are exactly right......if there is no patent protection, it's fair game...... I just find it very distasteful.....

just an anecdote.... I was approached once to buy a broadcast console from an American company by a Japanese company.... I felt honor bound to tell the Americans what i was asked to do and if they made the sale , where it would go.......and give them the choice on the sale. They said, "if they can do it cheaper, let them go ahead."

 

The restoration parts market. If this type of copying didn't happen, all the parts used to restore my old Mustang wouldn't have been available to make it as pretty as it is! Some of the stuff is crap, some is considered MCA correct for shows! And they're all copies. Evan if NOS were available, there goes another $20k (them parts aren't cheap), and I'd have been taking them from people who wanted to do factory correct restoration, all to put on my restomod....

Sorry for the lectures, but it seemed that you weren't aware of how it works. You are, and I apologize for any percieved tonal problems with my posts. In the case of this header, you get slightly worse quality, and much worse support for the price delta.

Matt

 

Don’t you hate it when you spend time to compose a thoughtful reply, and then upon submitting it, an error happens, and the expression is forever lost?! Yah, I replied yesterday, to no avail…

And don’t you hate it when a thread goes OT, and you’re part of it, and even worse the initiator of it?! I didn’t get back home until around 2am, and I was sort of hoping that this baby would get back on track. It has not, and I feel compelled…

Some of the replies have touched upon things that I originally wanted to share, so I’ll try to be brief as possible, but I don’t think so...

I don’t have an aftermkt header, and when I do get one, I’m not even sure if this SS design will be the one that I’ll want. I’m certainly not some SS loyalist or anything. I chimed-in early and often in that monster OBX thread, showing much interest in that header, and that I’m open to new options for us. With that said, I love competition; personally speaking, and in our wonderful marketplace, most especially when it drives innovation and an improved product for all of us. Sometimes it doesn’t, and a cost/benefit analysis, with a dose of morality is what each of us is left with…

I didn’t say legality, as it appears that we don’t know if SS has any type of legal protection on their header.

What we do seem to know is that the OBX header is a copy of the SS one, and it’s sold for about $400 USD less. SS seems to be not pleased by this, and that’s understandable; as I think all would agree. And if SS does not have any legal recourse, that’s their mistake for not pursuing such protection. I’m sure they were well aware of that option, and if they balked on it, that was a choice they made…

So, with all that aside, what does one get, or forgo for this price delta?

I think Matt said it above… quality and support.

Not all copies of product are of less quality, but from some feedback thus far, it appears that the OBX header craftsmanship is not exactly the best. That will be acceptable for some, and not for others.

Along those lines, the warranty is bound to be less than that of SS, and for a busted weld or other type of failure, getting a free replacement OBX might prove to be quite difficult or impossible as compared to a SS. This is segueing into the support side of things now…

I tried getting some information and specs on the OBX quite a few months ago, and it was very frustrating. The distributors didn’t know details, and the phone numbers and email address provided got me nowhere. The OBX option started to lose its initial luster for me…

To the contrary, when I was building my custom exhaust, SS was one of my choices for the center pipe. I shared with them (BMP/PROMINI) my project, and I had a tech on the phone who was intimate with the product, giving me dimensions, and helping me with choices, namely those impacting fitment and sound concerns. I was sent a center pipe without resonator, and when I found that to be a tad loud, they sent to me the one with the resonator, again with plenty of info on the resonator itself. They had the knowledge on what they sell, and made the time to partner with me to make my project successful.

Is this worth a few hundred bucks? Well, for me, along with the other considerations, yes.

The OBX costs less for obvious reasons. They apparently didn’t invest in R&D, nor are they using the most highly skilled craftsmen, and I guess it shows. There is not the same level of investment in a support structure also, which is something that might prove to be more necessary with the OBX vs a SS. And I just don’t like the idea that it’s simply a copy, with no extras to differentiate itself, other than a cheaper price, and the corresponding cheapening of what one gets (product & support). Heck, if you’re going to mug it, at least take the dang design and do something… like make it out steel, not stainless for example, ceramic coat it… give us something different or new to ponder. Like taking a pulley, same basic design, but use different material, make a different size, add a feature or two.

As Bob (SpiderX) shared, true competition brings-out the best (improved product offerings)… not just finding short-cuts to make the same thing, especially when the end product has been compromised to offer less…

Being that I plan to keep my MINI in the family for decades to come, I will not skimp on quality. And while I find the support of our MINI vendors/tuners to be important, I likewise will do my best to not condone the blatant, simplistic copying that we sometimes see, and that does impact them.

BMP/PROMINI/SS might not get back to an email inquiry regarding their feelings on this topic. Unfortunately, there are many who want confirmation that this is indeed a copy, because if so, they will get the OBX.

Matt, I’m sure you’ll still disagree, and knowing you, respectfully. That’s what it’s all about my friend! Doing so with family and friends is healthy, I feel.

Personalities are often different, and I suppose my stance says a lot about me. For example, if I decide I don’t want to buy an item while shopping, I walk all the way back to the aisle where I found it, and put it back where it belongs. My wife thinks I'm a little crazy for doing this sometimes. I also won’t liter on the ground, even if in a spot where the ground is covered with debris. Heck, I’ve even been known to pick-up garbage! And I sort of feel that my expression here is in someway similar… just trying to help. From past experience, I realize that I’m not in the norm on such things, so I understand if I’m in the minority here. For me it just comes-down to principle and doing what’s right…the Golden Rule often dictating actions...

I was actually quite surprised this morning to see that this thread has not been moved, cleaned-up a little, or with some kind of mod intervention. I might have changed that now . With that I’m out, only to return to a thread where I can contribute, on topic of course. Still buzzin’ from the booze last night. My apologies….

 

I love you guys........sob..sob...

Back to the topic...... I would get the Unichip over the OBX or any header for that matter

 

i would get the unichip THEN the header. :D

 

and that is the outrageous prices that Mini aftermarket parts usually command. So OBX is a sinner for copying, but the price of Mini headers is just absurd! look at what you can get for most cars, hondas, any american V-8.. Sheeze, there are even headers available for EFI 351s in gen1 Mustang bodies! And the volume there is much less than the Mini. And they cost LOTS less too.

So yea, the OBX is a flat out copy. And it looks like they don't use the best CC equipment to make it (otherwise there wouldn't be a stud for bolt issue every now and then). But it even barring the protection issue, the price point (extra profit that they get from US!) opens the door for blatent copies even more.... Heck, if the SS were 150% of the OBX, they'd still make good money, and we could pay a reasonable premium for the support.

Oh yeah, price be damned, the Unichip then the header. Price in play MTH then OBX

Matt

 

Maybe OBX will clone a Unichip next.

 

Hooray for clones!

 

I find it interesting how many are up in arms about the OBX header and its legitimacy.

How about pulleys? Who made the first 15%? Are you running an original? or did you buy a ripped off clone?

Or CAI for that matter - several are virtually identical.

I don't hear anyone questioning these other products which unfortunately leads me to believe that this has nothing to do with "ripping off" but more the geographic area involved.

 

I would definately by a MINI clone if it was the same quality as the MINI. Screw legitimacy I say. Hooray for capitalism.

Wait, I hate capitalism.

 

Do you think they will have little children assembling them too?

 

WHAT no one willing to take this on?

 

Exactly what he said.
The OBX header is a great bargain. When I got mine I did a little dress up that's all it was not any serious issue. The welds were very nice and showed good penetration.
I have had the best V8 headers and had to refine them too.
By the way consider the source of the SS;
"Italy has a diversified industrial economy with roughly the same total and per capita output as France and the UK. This capitalistic economy remains divided into a developed industrial north, dominated by private companies, and a less developed, welfare-dependent agricultural south, with 20% unemployment. Most raw materials needed by industry and more than 75% of energy requirements are imported. Over the past decade, Italy has pursued a tight fiscal policy in order to meet the requirements of the Economic and Monetary Unions and has benefited from lower interest and inflation rates. The current government has enacted numerous short-term reforms aimed at improving competitiveness and long-term growth. Italy has moved slowly, however, on implementing needed structural reforms, such as lightening the high tax burden and overhauling Italy's rigid labor market and over-generous pension system, because of the current economic slowdown and opposition from labor unions. But the leadership faces a severe economic constraint: the budget has breached the 3% EURO deficit ceiling."
Source, CIA world factbook

 

I don't get it. Is this an attack on Italy? That would not be too cool.