I'm still learning about these cars, so please bear with me.

Do I understand that the gen. 1 (at least) engine does not...have a factory windage tray in the crank case?

If not, have any of you installed one ? Seems like a must have to me. Oil sloshing around in the crank case WILL rob horse power. Proven fact, an LONG time ago.

Mike

 

There are oil sump baffles for the oil pan.....

 

TOAGO -

Thanks for your comment.
Yes, I know. Completely different part, completely different application.
In fact they work very well together and compliment each other in a race and or performance application.
One keeps the oil around the pickup, one helps keep the oil from bouncing around in the crank shaft area.

Think of it this way. Stand next to a pool (sorry, wrong time of year !), swing your arms like you are swimming. No effort right ? Now get into the pool and swim a lap...MUCH higher resistance to moving your arms...right ? Think of your arms as the crank shaft, and the water as the oil.
This is the reason for a windage tray. Keep all the spent oil out of the way of the swinging parts to allow more power to the flywheel. Minor H.P. increase on the dyno, major increase on the track.

Mike

 

Wow, a full week gone by and nuthin. No questions, only one comment, and he's not sure what I'm talking about.

One single, simple part that can "allow" the horse power that the engine make can actually make it to the flywheel. Nobody realizes that oil sloshing in the pan and whipping around on the crankshaft can actually rob power, and no one...cares..!
Amazing.

As soon as I get a few other things done to other cars, I'll be building one for my car. May even buy the baffle system described above.

Mike

 

Sorry, just saw this one,.

This is the only aftermarket one we sell. From what i remember is the factory never had one.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-sneed4sp...y/1028310~snd/

 

Bringing this thread back. This part seems like a great add-on for engine performance and longevity. What are the downsides of this part being installed, if any?

 

RJ -

Zero downside. Well, it will add a few oz. to the weight of the car ! A flat (probably), .08" or .09" thick piece of steel, with a good shape (louvers and other well placed holes).
I've been both busy on another car, and...lazy about getting to this.
I have an engine that I can use to design the tray. I really don't understand the lack of knowledge about windage trays for these engines. Drag racing, road racing, F1, hell, even high performance boats use them.
This was verified many years ago, by several different engine builders, that getting and keeping the spent oil away from the spinning crankshaft, actually makes power. See my note above about swinging your arms in the air and in a swimming pool. Takes a LOT more strength to move your arms in a pool. It's VERY much the same with a spinning crankshaft in oil or in more clear air.

And, with a quick accelerating car, it also keeps the oil from sloshing back and up the block wall, and...into the spinning crankshaft. Also see cornering, keeps the oil down away from...the crank.

With an engine that's somewhat lacking in horsepower (I'm more used to 600 and 800hp American engines), I'd think that most anything that will aid in a few horsepower, would be highly desired. I guess folks with these little cars just don't understand the principles at work (by the note above). I wonder about the other BMW racing, performance crowd ?

Makes me wonder if this crowd has much if any knowledge about "Gapless piston rings" and "crankcase vacuum" ? More goodies to aid in proven additional power, for many, many years. The Gapless Rings are very good, even on the street, even in supercharged engines.

The crankcase vacuum would be more for race engines only.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask any other questions if you have them. I'll try to help if I can.

Mike

 

I love condescending people.

If there's no windage tray from factory, there's probably a reason for it. Don't know if the guy that helped design the engine is still on here, but he'd most likely have the answer as to why... You say that it's a completely different part with a different application, but a baffle also helps preventing oil from splashing around... so it has a similar purpose on top of preventing oil starvation at the pickup.

Makes me wonder if you have any skills at landing a space shuttle. Seriously dude... How many people on car forums runs gapless rings? How many people fitted an extra vaccum pump for the crankcase ventilation on their street cars? The answer is not enough to be a common mod on your average STREET car forum...

 

OCR, you must have missed the part where most everyone on the forum is running 200-250hp. It's a 1.6 liter 4-banger, not a 7 liter V8. Any HP loss from a windage tray is going to be so incredibly minute that it is certainly not enough to make any difference. You may want to look for a different forum.

 

You guys are truly funny. Got any other words of wisdom ?

A lesser powered engine needs the help MORE...than a higher powered engine..!
Ever heard of percentages..? A higher (%) percent of power can possibly be made with smaller power to begin with, or did you miss that class in high school..!

And yeah, sure, "If there's no windage tray from factory, there's probably a reason for it." Now THAT'S an intelligent comment if I ever heard of one..! If this were the cast, we'd still be driving Model "A's" .

And Da_
You apparently don't read too well. I believe I mentioned that the vacuum system was more for racing engines...DIDN'T I..?
As for gapless rings. Again, yeah, MANY folks that want performance from their engine rebuilds, like the "details" to be as good as possible. And a set of Gapless rings make power AND...last longer than nongapless...so why not ?
Or are you insulating folks on the "forums" are...well...less than intelligent ?
You need to spread your little hummingbird wings and get out into the world more..!

Me, sorry to have to say, if I'm gonna spend the money on a better grind of cam, buy a (or in my case port my own) ported cylinder head, buy a lesser intercooler (NO, not me) from the aftermarket, I'm also going to put a little more "detail' into my build, for...even better power and longevity.

Or am I missing the fact that most of you guys are just "buy from the store wall" and bolt it on with little to no knowledge about the part(s) you are buying..?

Details count ladies...

Mike

 

Well, I have to admit you're certainly entertaining. Percentages is absolutely the answer. One-half percent of 200hp (1hp) is certainly a lot less than one-half percent of 700hp (3.5hp). Neither will give you a performance increase worth noting. That is unless of course you believe a windage tray is worth 10hp on a 1.6 liter motor. I'm hoping, for your sake, that's not the case. And, by the way, online insults are infantile.

 

In addition to the Sneed Windage Tray, Way has a baffled oil pan: https://www.waymotorworks.com/wmw-ba...n-r50-r53.html This is similar to the old Cobra T-Pan design with baffles that minimize oil starvation in high speed turns. Although more expensive, if I were in need of changing out my oil pan gasket, I'd probably go that route.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback and suggestions everyone! I may be looking at that oil pan and the windage tray when I need to replace my oil pan gasket. I just did the chain, guides, and ATI Super Damper. The car is running tip-top now!

 

Very interesting thread.

Can someone just do a Dyno comparison ?

 

A dyno test will only tell a very small part of the benefit of a tray on a Mini. Though yes, it will point out what racers (of all disciplines), AND factories (performance cars) have known for years, "oil control is worth horse power".
With the fact that there are NO baffles of any sort in the pan, the oil will slosh around all over during acceleration, stopping left and right turns. A windage tray will keep the oil from getting into the crankshaft area during all of these hard maneuvers.
I have to say, I've never heard of a rocking dyno..!

The above comment is NOT a joking comment. A VERY simple analogy... Fill a glass with water, to about 1/8" below the rim. Now, just do a simple, normal walk from the kitchen sink to the couch to watch TV without being overly "careful" while walking. Exactly how much water have you spilled ? Now do the same thing with a cover over the glass, how much water did you spill ? You have just completed a form of...oil (water) control !

Now, tell me that a windage tray is useless..!

Mike

Note - a couple of baffles in the pan would also do a world of good. That baffle that is currently available to buy is one simple form of baffling, but it could be much better too.

 

I get the analogy. In that case do a road tuning with PerfExpert.
then see how much does it really on paper. Numbers speak. No more guessing. If it’s a real gain $ to horsepower make sense then this should be on the general tuners list of bolt on.

maybe hit up sneed and see if they willing to sponsor for some DATA.

 

Schrick has a trick test rig that is set up as a simulation of the Nordschleife at Nurburgring...



...crazy angles which are quite similar to mountain backroads that we all love.


:




Ishihara-Johnson offers a windage tray of the mesh type + crank scrapers.

https://www.crank-scrapers.com/bmw_mini-cooper.html

And to the debate about windage trays, we can add screen mesh vs. solid louvered!

 

There you go. Numbers don’t lie. LoL

Can’t wait!

 

The science of windage trays has been around for a long time, they do work.

The "real world" question is, will they benefit you enough (for your circumstances) to make the expense and time involved, worth it for you.

It's really only that simple.

Personally, yes, if my motor cones out again, or the pan comes off I'll install one.
But until then (in my situation) I'm not going through the trouble, for a few extra HrsPrs.

 

I never thought of this, but the science behind it makes sense. Cool information!

 

Back before I got into MINIs, I swapped a new engine into a Saturn SC2. I was startled to discover the engine had a windage tray. I did a little research and found that it later was removed by General Motors bean counters (when GM pulled Saturn back to an in-house operation). I did transfer the windage tray to the new engine, as the mount points were still there!

Windage tray on the blown engine:



I suspect the answer to "why don't MINIs have factory windage trays" is "money". It's not exactly an expensive component – stamped sheet metal – but it's also not really necessary for mass-market street cars. How often does a street car have its oil slosh up high enough that the crankshaft will start frothing it? Nearly never. Which is why I was startled to see it in an economy car's engine. Saturn was a little weird before GM strangled it.

Now if we want to talk about bizarre decisions, how about those plastic timing chain guides in the Gen 2 cars? Even Saturn got that one right!

 

We know it’ll be beneficial for the engine. So is a header and CAI and 380cc for starters.

i think the discussion was how is the Tray being left out on the Bolt On mod list. People go including myself are trying to squeeze in as much as possible because that’s just what we do.

so we all know the gains from a catback.

So what are the real gains? ( round it off as much as you like from start stop / cornering etc to overall gains )

from a daily driver with every single bolt on ++ to a weekend track car.

 

Take the oil pan off get a 2 inch plate
ANd drill three 2 mm holes on the plate
Jb weld it on the pan your not only will you oil pressure be insane but your gonna alter how fast the supercharger is spinning
i would say in the 32 to 40 lbs of boost
Ohhh make sure you use 40w70 !
IT will travel alot quicker from the oil pump
Thru the supercharger and leave a nice coat
On the horns,injectors ,water pump and condenser
Thank me later 😉

 

Funny that this conversation is taking place. On a dutch Seat forum which I am still actively participating (even though I dont drive a Seat for some time now), we have 1 member which shared the following clip

Seat Leon Cupra 5F (with the EA888 engine), hard brake, sharp turn.

This also shows the need for baffling/windage trays, with cars which are driven hard. The repair is set for new timing chain + new guides + new cam shafts etc

 

Also this shows a similar picture, Golf R (EA888 engine) driven hard. Engine was broken after this (oil starvation)