05 pepper white MCS modification project - Page 37 - North American Motoring

Go Back  North American Motoring > 1st Generation MINIs > Modifications > Drivetrain (Cooper S)
05 pepper white MCS modification project >

05 pepper white MCS modification project

Drivetrain (Cooper S) MINI Cooper S (R53) intakes, exhausts, pulleys, headers, throttle bodies, and any other modifications to the Cooper S drivetrain.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

05 pepper white MCS modification project

Reply

 
 
 
  #901  
Old 08-07-2018, 05:50 AM
Bnourai's Avatar
Bnourai
Bnourai is offline
5th Gear
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 623
Thanked 36 Times in 34 Posts
Talking about heat lol, move down to Texas..Lol your feet gets stuck in asphalt
 
Reply With Quote
  #902  
Old 08-07-2018, 05:51 AM
Bnourai's Avatar
Bnourai
Bnourai is offline
5th Gear
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 623
Thanked 36 Times in 34 Posts
Love the Porsche on track, great video.
ben
 
Reply With Quote
  #903  
Old 08-07-2018, 01:29 PM
ECSTuning's Avatar
ECSTuning
ECSTuning is online now
Platinum Sponsor
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Wadsworth,OH
Posts: 25,706
Thanked 317 Times in 307 Posts
Its been super hot here for weeks. We have a track day coming up at Pitt Race and I hope i can make it. New Ohlins should be installed on my R58 JCW by then.
 
Reply With Quote
  #904  
Old 08-07-2018, 03:25 PM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
Its been super hot here for weeks. We have a track day coming up at Pitt Race and I hope i can make it. New Ohlins should be installed on my R58 JCW by then.
Mini's are crazy fun to drive around in a track. Ohlins makes great dampers. Hope you have fun and stay cool.

Give me low 60s and I am as happy as a big clam in the NW Pacific water. When it is too cold you can always pile on few layers of clothes. When it is too hot, you can't peel off your skin.
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-07-2018 at 04:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #905  
Old 08-08-2018, 07:06 AM
Eddie07S's Avatar
Eddie07S
Eddie07S is offline
6th Gear
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,531
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
We have heat (90+), humidity (85%+) and rain/damaging thunderstorms....
The Gen II MINI with the turbo cook the oil and water temps are not much better. At least with the N18s I can see oil temps.

On the R53s, I heard from a friend that the temp gauge is a “dummy”. It sits there at a single temperature and doesn’t move. Whereas his ScanGage showed a significant increase in temperature when he was out on the track. At least the R53 has aftermarket options for radiators. There don’t seem to be any good options for the R56.

pnwR53S - Have you thought of doing an upgraded radiator?
 
Reply With Quote
  #906  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:09 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
The hottest days we have driven has not exceed 95F. So far I see no evidence that Desire's engine cooling system being inadequate. Sure, the car is slower with 95F than 65F ambient, which is to be expected but that is just the intake of warmer air with less O2.

I have read some allegation that the R53 temperature gauge does not reflect reality. I highly suspect this claim. The sensor is on the end of the cylinder head right by the thermostat. It reads the temperature of the AL head and the coolant right by that spot. One can speculate all day long that the ECU could apply some voodoo algorithm to the data read before showing on the gauge. I don't see why they would want to do that. If anything the ECU might just apply a smoothing function so the gauge does not fluctuate unreasonably. I however doubt it does that, as the thermostat is not a on/off binary device. It behaves more like a analog mechanical gate with a range of degrees of opening.

The fake gauge is the oil pressure on the deluxe Chrono Pack. There is no oil pressure sensor from any factory Mini offering. It is just a stupid calculated pressure based on the assumption of oil viscosity using the coolant temperature - fake news . The most egregious thing is, when the oil filter housing drain back valve fails and the oil pressure drops to dangerously level but not enough to flip the oil pressure switch the fake pressure would stay high.

On the temperature read at the ODB, that may be different from the coolant one displayed. That one must be calculated from a number of sensors (MAP, TMAP, and engine coolant, but not likely to include the air ambient sensor behind the license plate) for optimum engine management and hence different and more dynamic.
 
Reply With Quote
  #907  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:17 AM
MrBlah
MrBlah is offline
6th Gear - AX Champion
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Pittsboro NC
Posts: 2,354
Thanked 74 Times in 64 Posts
bmw buffers the gauges they started to do that back in the 80s so they read in the middle until there is a problem then they quickly spike, mini is no exception to this rule

the chrono pack is all fake, oil temp is not real it's calculated
 
Reply With Quote
  #908  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:22 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
Originally Posted by MrBlah View Post
bmw buffers the gauges they started to do that back in the 80s so they read in the middle until there is a problem then they quickly spike, mini is no exception to this rule

the chrono pack is all fake, oil temp is not real it's calculated
We are on the same page on the crap boutique Chrono Pack.

As to what extend, if any, BMW buffer the coolant temp sensor, one need connect an independent gauge or just a ohm meter or data logger to prove it. It would be an interesting exercise and find out the fact.
 
Reply With Quote
  #909  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:29 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
I have a rationale as to why BMW buffers the coolant temp gauge. In the old days these gauges are bi-metal. They consists of a bi-metal wrapped around by a miniature heating element. As such they are rather slow to move and do a good job of displaying average over a long time period. When the newer cars switches to stepper motor based gauges some buffering (aka applying some processing) so the gauges does not jump around.

BTW, those precious JCW aux gauges made by VDO are still bi-metal! The slow rise of the needle when first turned on is the dead giveaway.
 
Reply With Quote
  #910  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:07 AM
Eddie07S's Avatar
Eddie07S
Eddie07S is offline
6th Gear
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,531
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
Glad to hear Desire is handling the heat well.

I have heard that Dealers really hate real gages in cars because thay will all read differently by some inconsequential amount. But when people see that theirs is not reading as high or as low (depending on the gage) as someone else’s they take their car in to be repaired, insisting that something is wrong because of this difference. I would not put it past BMW to add an if-statement to the ECU to clip the water temp at a certain point, before sending the info to the gage. This is no different than them adding 3 mph to the speedometer.
 
Reply With Quote
  #911  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:21 PM
Anakist
Anakist is offline
3rd Gear
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 190
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
As to what extend, if any, BMW buffer the coolant temp sensor, one need connect an independent gauge or just a ohm meter or data logger to prove it. It would be an interesting exercise and find out the fact.
I run an ultragauge in my R53. The water temp can vary between about 85c and 105c without the Mini gauge moving.

James
 
Reply With Quote
  #912  
Old 08-09-2018, 08:37 AM
Eddie07S's Avatar
Eddie07S
Eddie07S is offline
6th Gear
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,531
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by Anakist View Post
I run an ultragauge in my R53. The water temp can vary between about 85c and 105c without the Mini gauge moving.

James
So that is 185 to 221 F (I hope I did the math correctly). They run the R56 basically at the higher end of that range and on the track it will get even higher.

Did you happen to watch the ultragage as the engine was coming up in temperature to see at what temperature the MINI gage needle stopped moving?
 
Reply With Quote
  #913  
Old 08-09-2018, 11:58 AM
Anakist
Anakist is offline
3rd Gear
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 190
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
No. I always mean to watch when it starts and stops, but never remember.

James
 
Reply With Quote
  #914  
Old 08-09-2018, 01:43 PM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
Originally Posted by Eddie07S View Post
Glad to hear Desire is handling the heat well.

I have heard that Dealers really hate real gages in cars because thay will all read differently by some inconsequential amount. But when people see that theirs is not reading as high or as low (depending on the gage) as someone else’s they take their car in to be repaired, insisting that something is wrong because of this difference. I would not put it past BMW to add an if-statement to the ECU to clip the water temp at a certain point, before sending the info to the gage. This is no different than them adding 3 mph to the speedometer.
I can see the difference in gauge reading can cause trouble at the dealer by unreasonable customers. The stupid 3 MPH add to speedometer is by law in NA countries, and to cover from liability. We are all paying the price for ignorant and litigation happy customers.

I have an Ultragauge but is in my Sprinter. I spent too much time calibrating the fuel MPG and customized the setup so I am reluctant to put in the Mini to check this out. I am wondering if the reading just go up and down when the radiator fan toggles on and off. Older cars with a mechanical fan will tend to maintain more even temperature as the fan runs all the time. Be best is to take a video of both side by side to let us see for ourselves.
 
Reply With Quote
  #915  
Old 08-09-2018, 02:12 PM
Eddie07S's Avatar
Eddie07S
Eddie07S is offline
6th Gear
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,531
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
I am no further help with this one. Similarly, my ScanGage is semi-permanently installed in my 2012 MINI and it is doubtful whether our ‘04 base Cooper would vary much in temperature anyway.
 
Reply With Quote
  #916  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:05 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
engine temperature log

I went and dug out my Bytetronik R53FA log from a track event and reviewed the engine temperature. It covered from engine start from lukewarm, to lapping the track for about 13 laps including a cool down lap, then off track to parking which I let the engine idle for a few minutes with the bonnet closed. Everything looks very normal to me including the themostat regulating the coolant flow, and how the temperature swing up and down when the vehicle is stationary and the cooling fan kicks in and out. It was a cool day from early summer.

red = engine temp C; yellow = speed MPH


You can see when driving at brisk pace the engine temperature is tightly regulated. Driving at low speed or idling while park the variations are the greatest due to the cooling fan kicking in and out. These are exactly what I envisioned. I can certainly see that MINI apply some algorithm to average out the peaks and valleys. The question is how aggressive is the smoothing function and do they apply heavyhanded clamp.

As the temp sensor sensing tip is in the coolant flow stream rather than the temperature of the cylinder head, I also expect the DME applies a smoothing function to better approximate the AL cylinder head and the temp gradients of the rest of the engine for performance engine management.
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-10-2018 at 09:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #917  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:32 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
fake news?

LOL. I went and scrutinized one track video taken with the GoPro. Here are two zoomed-in screen grabs with the first at circa 110 MPH on the back straight during the cool down lap; and the second when pulling into the parking spot. There are just barely enough resolution to discern where the needle were. I would say MINI's buffering of the temperature is pretty reasonable. Note that we are talking of ~ 10-15 C of changes on a ~100 C nominal reading on that tiny 45-degree sweep of the needle.

at circa 110 MPH in a cool-down lap


pulling into the parking spot after the cool-down lap


This has been one fun fact finding exercise.
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-10-2018 at 09:35 AM. Reason: added last sentence
Reply With Quote
  #918  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:19 AM
Eddie07S's Avatar
Eddie07S
Eddie07S is offline
6th Gear
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,531
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts

Nice data...
Thanks for sharing.
 
Reply With Quote
  #919  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:30 PM
Zsm
Zsm is offline
3rd Gear
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: SF Bay Area - Nor Cal
Posts: 212
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
The data log file is pretty informative. Shows the thermostat doing its duty. Stays closed initially and then opens up, temps dip a bit and then your fun begins all the while the coolant temps stay consistent.

My kid and I just finished putting in an aluminum coolant tank and a new thermostat. Before the maintenance, the R53 would be hot after parking and the fan would kick in high, coolant stains on the tank indicated pressure loss from leaks at the seam and cap. Now with new thermostat and tank, temps are stable based on what I see on the OBC hidden monitor and surprse surprise, the fan doesn't kick on after being parked anymore. I guess that thermostat was getting lazy!

Curious, are you tracking oil temps too? I just bought an aux gauge (oil temp and voltage) pack from All Mag. Was originally gonna go with coolant temp gauge or scan gauge, but I saw their offer on that famous auction website and the rest is history.
 
Reply With Quote
  #920  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:26 PM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
Automotive thermostat is a very ingenious device we take for granted. It is a wax filled cartridge that can expand and contract acting like an mechanical valve in analog manner. This similar design is used in high end thermostatic regulated shower valve. I wonder what is the most common failure mode, tends to open or shut. My experience is they are very reliable unless suffer from corrosion. I remember trying to test one but could not get it to quite fully open only to realize I could not reach the specified temperature with boiling water. Duh! That was in hi school daze. Of course now I know I could test it in cooking oil instead.

I am not logging oil temperature and I see no reason to. It should track engine coolant proportionally (by that I don't mean their respective temperatures are close) more or less. All the parameters being logged are via ODB from the DME. As it is so hard to find space for gauges I only have boost, oil pressure, and Lambda. It would be really nice to set up audible and loud alarm as soon as engine over-temp or loss of oil pressure, before any damage occur.
 
Reply With Quote
  #921  
Old 08-11-2018, 08:56 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
these tyres have got lots of life left?




Today is the only cool day to work on Desire. I signed her up for more driving education and I am going over all the essentials. I was hoping these tyres can last another track event. The problems is I unwittingly signed up for two consecutive days of events. There will not be a chance to swap in new tyres between the two days.







The two with more thread depth will be used up front. I know I would be pushing it for a full burrito day, but a tyre will like cord after one day. And ya, I like wearing flipflops when working on cars. So far I have avoided dropping a cast iron V8 on the big toes.

The amount of thread left can be deceiving. I am worry about cording the outer shoulder on the left front.
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-11-2018 at 09:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #922  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:44 PM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
how the hell can this happen?

I am taking my time to swap out the AL pistons in the Wilwood BBK and replace them with SS ones. No surprise that I have been putting this job off for so long as it is quite involving and require a lot of care to do it right. While putting the calipers back I noticed something not right on the passenger side strut that meets the steering knuckle. I reached out with my hand to try turning the 18mm pinch bolt that is supposed to be torqued to 60 ft-lb. I could turn it with my fingers. Of course the strut is loose against the steering knuckle. One cannot stress the importance of checking all the suspension and brakes before and after each track event. To make the checking quick I use a rubber mallet to tap all the my-life-depends on it fasteners and joints.

I did notice something felt loose after the last track day driving home. So this was the cause. Could have a crash and burnt braking from 115 MPH at the end of the straights.

I was on standby yesterday's HPDE and thankfully no vacancy open for me. I would not have checked the suspension in such detail. It was forecasted to be 78F high but it turned out the weatherman was way off. The late day temperature reached 92F, and I am very glad I didn't go.
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-11-2018 at 01:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #923  
Old 08-11-2018, 08:47 PM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
free rubber

I was just musing at the photos of the tyres after a track event. The rear ones were hardly worn. In fact they gain a lot of rubber. I can just swap them to the front and may be those extra free rubber pickup will last a whole burrito day.

 
Reply With Quote
  #924  
Old 08-12-2018, 04:49 AM
Eddie07S's Avatar
Eddie07S
Eddie07S is offline
6th Gear
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,531
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
Love the “safety shoes”!

Great catch on finding the strut bolt being loose. That would be one that would be hard to think to check when chasing down a rattle or the like.

Around the salted NE, we just do all of our suspension work in the fall. That way everything rusts together in the winter and we don’t have to worry about it ever coming loose...
 
Reply With Quote
  #925  
Old 08-12-2018, 09:22 AM
pnwR53S's Avatar
pnwR53S
pnwR53S is online now
6th Gear - NAM Hall of Fame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: soggy pnw
Posts: 2,491
Thanked 208 Times in 203 Posts
Originally Posted by Eddie07S View Post
Love the “safety shoes”!

Great catch on finding the strut bolt being loose. That would be one that would be hard to think to check when chasing down a rattle or the like.

Around the salted NE, we just do all of our suspension work in the fall. That way everything rusts together in the winter and we don’t have to worry about it ever coming loose...
Safety has many facets. If you are careless and distracted, the best of working boots with steel toes protection ain't going to protect you. One of the most striking things I watched is the attire of Japanese master carpenters. They wear cotton shoes with the split toes and use their feet like a vice for cutting timber beams with precision and supreme skills, and of course undivided attention.

Funny you mentioned free Loctite in the NE. I was going to say that that on the left coast we have to buy overpriced Loctite, and you guys get the better stuff (whatever chlorites) for free. I thought of give it a dab of blue Loctite if it ever come loose again.
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
 
 
 

Forum Jump

Thread Tools
Search this Thread