Drivetrain HELP! Belt , burning smell , size
HELP! Belt , burning smell , size
2 months ago i had a broken damper. So i went and change to alta 0% crank pulley and 17% sc pulley. Used the belt that came with it , shredded because of the pulley misalignment. Swapped to gates , 3/4 of hole showing. After a month , i had slipping. Wasnt happy so i tried on gatorback 4060537 today. No hole showing at all , power is better but im having trouble with burning smell on hard acceleration and i can tell that its coming from the belt area. Can somebody explain what is wrong. Size of belt ?
alta 0% crank pulley
is the way to go.
What was the prupose of doing that? Do a search, the stock or ATI http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/101/index.htm
is the way to go.
is the way to go.
Gates belt K060535
If you want a permanent fix that wont be terribly expensive a solid crank pulley is the way to go.
There some articles and issues with some people running a Solid pulley. Just ask around.
$300 for a pulley is a lot we have installed a lot of solid crank pulleys the only issue we have seen with them is when someone improperly installs one and damages the pulley putting it on.
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we have installed a lot of solid crank pulleys the only issue we have seen with them is when someone improperly installs one and damages the pulley putting it on.
The point of a crank pulley (crank dampener,harmonic balancer) is to absorb all the vibrations/harmonics that the crankshaft produces. This is the reason they are made with a layer of rubber. If you take away that rubber you will be sending all those unwanted vibrations to the main bearings in your crank case. If you care about the life of your engine its not a good idea. A couple pounds of rotational mass is not worth a shorter bearing life. Your certified friend should know that.
The point of a crank pulley (crank dampener,harmonic balancer) is to absorb all the vibrations/harmonics that the crankshaft produces. This is the reason they are made with a layer of rubber. If you take away that rubber you will be sending all those unwanted vibrations to the main bearings in your crank case. If you care about the life of your engine its not a good idea. A couple pounds of rotational mass is not worth a shorter bearing life. Your certified friend should know that.
Here was a very in depth article written by Steve Dinan of Dinan Motorsports.
The Danger of Power Pulleys & Understanding the Harmonic Damper I thought this would help some of you guys out. We all know they arent good, but this will help you understand why.
The Danger of Power Pulleys & Understanding the Harmonic Damper
BY STEVE DINAN OF DINAN BMW
I have been threatening for a long time to write a series of technical articles to educate consumers and to dispel misconceptions that exist about automotive after-market technology. Motivated by problems with customer's cars resulting from the installation of power pulleys, I wish to explain the potential dangers of these products and address the damage they cause to engines.
The theory behind the power pulley is that a reduction in the speed of the accessory drive will minimize the parasitic losses that rob power from the engine. Parasitic power losses are a result of the energy that the engine uses to turn accessory components such as the alternator and water pump, instead of producing power for acceleration. In an attempt to minimize this energy loss, many companies claim to produce additional power by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight assembly. While a small power gain can be realized, there are a significant number of potential problems associated with this modification, some that are small and one which is particularly large and damaging!
The popular method for making power pulleys on E36 engines is by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight alloy assembly. This is a very dangerous product because this damper is essential to the longevity of an engine. The substitution of this part often results in severe engine damage.
It is also important to understand that while the engine in a BMW is designed by a team of qualified engineers, these power pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of physics. I would first like to give a brief explanation of these principles which are critical to the proper operation of an engine.
1) Elastic Deformation
Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.
2) Natural Frequency
All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its "natural frequency," that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure).
3) Fatigue Failure
Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure.
The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct.
1) The vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine.
2) The vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper and is the primary subject of this paper.
Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency)
Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.
This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.

Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves
Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft.
The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name "harmonic damper" originates.

Critical RPM's
When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM's. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM's.
Major and Minor Critical RPM’s
Major and minor critical RPM's are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the "major criticals". Conversely, the "minor criticals" exist at RPM's that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft.
If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have witnessed front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement.
Harmonic Dampers
Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. This heat dissipation was visibly essential in Tom Milner's PTG racing M3 which channeled air from the brake ducts to the harmonic damper, in order to keep the damper at optimal operating temperatures. While there are various types of torsional vibration dampers, BMW engines are primarily designed with "tuned rubber" dampers.

It is also important to note that while the large springs of a dual mass flywheel absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a small reduction in vibration.
The Danger of Power Pulleys & Understanding the Harmonic Damper
BY STEVE DINAN OF DINAN BMW
I have been threatening for a long time to write a series of technical articles to educate consumers and to dispel misconceptions that exist about automotive after-market technology. Motivated by problems with customer's cars resulting from the installation of power pulleys, I wish to explain the potential dangers of these products and address the damage they cause to engines.
The theory behind the power pulley is that a reduction in the speed of the accessory drive will minimize the parasitic losses that rob power from the engine. Parasitic power losses are a result of the energy that the engine uses to turn accessory components such as the alternator and water pump, instead of producing power for acceleration. In an attempt to minimize this energy loss, many companies claim to produce additional power by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight assembly. While a small power gain can be realized, there are a significant number of potential problems associated with this modification, some that are small and one which is particularly large and damaging!
The popular method for making power pulleys on E36 engines is by removing the harmonic damper and replacing it with a lightweight alloy assembly. This is a very dangerous product because this damper is essential to the longevity of an engine. The substitution of this part often results in severe engine damage.
It is also important to understand that while the engine in a BMW is designed by a team of qualified engineers, these power pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of physics. I would first like to give a brief explanation of these principles which are critical to the proper operation of an engine.
1) Elastic Deformation
Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.
2) Natural Frequency
All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its "natural frequency," that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure).
3) Fatigue Failure
Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure.
The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct.
1) The vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine.
2) The vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper and is the primary subject of this paper.
Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency)
Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.
This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.

Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves
Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft.
The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name "harmonic damper" originates.

Critical RPM's
When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM's. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM's.
Major and Minor Critical RPM’s
Major and minor critical RPM's are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the "major criticals". Conversely, the "minor criticals" exist at RPM's that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft.
If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have witnessed front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement.
Harmonic Dampers
Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. This heat dissipation was visibly essential in Tom Milner's PTG racing M3 which channeled air from the brake ducts to the harmonic damper, in order to keep the damper at optimal operating temperatures. While there are various types of torsional vibration dampers, BMW engines are primarily designed with "tuned rubber" dampers.

It is also important to note that while the large springs of a dual mass flywheel absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a small reduction in vibration.
Nice write up but notice it is relevant to the e36 last I checked the r53 doesn't share an engine with the e36
The reason it is used on racing zero balance motors is because some race series require a dampened crank pulley this is why the ATI is rebuildable so that it can meet the certification requirements.
Also just about every motorcycle has soild or no balancer.
http://www.mcadvantages.com/fisher-h...1031_23625.cfm
LOL
Kawasaki ZX12r and Yamaha R1's use them.
Read the rulebook for NHRA tracks? you need an sfi balancer: general rule section
But you did state the following.
Where is this factual info from? I know you said a friend, but where are his facts from? I like to learn as much as I can so please help me. Also if MINI does not need them, why would MINI spend the money putting it on?
on a zero balance motor like the mini engine its is not as important as externally balanced engines.
Here is the message I got from him "Lol tell him to go to his,local community college and take automotive classes or drop $25k at uti. How else they gonna spin a belt ? The rubber design helps with NHV , if a mini runs better with no mufflers and poly bushings why doesnt mini do those too NHV or noise harshness vibration is a term they use to describe the whole department of people in charge of making a car quieter. Thats why dumb things like dual mass flywheels exist. Less clutch chatter and smooth engagement. Another thing the s has the justa doesnt is the dual mass. Wonder if hes gonna say lightweight wheels ruin wheel bearings too. I know Dinan performance hates soild pulleys but every car is different and plenty of cars have been running around with them for years and not failed."
Folks..a person convinced against their will is still of the same opinion....
my opinion, and of several rebuilders who have seem the insides of mini's getting parted out that cone in with solid dampers.....who happens be a racer too, is running without a famper trashes the bearings....will they fail in a couple years of normal driving...maybe not...longer, you bet...how long, who knows. If a person just wants the cheapest way to get the car on the road, going undamped is cheaper, but WILL shorten bearing and seal life, and be much harder on the oil pimp....fact. but other fact, many folks sre just limping their cars along for "another year" and will dump it...so feel sorry for the next owner, but they just want to save a $$. Not my choice....kinda like changing the oil, and reusing the filter imo, but the choice has been made. It DOES gauarentee the shop a LARGE amount of future bussiness in engine changes...
i too know a shop that does solid dampers....some folks want them/need to save the $$, and a shops job is to satisfy the consumer....
Then again, i also know a driver that went solid, the after a few months WENT BACK to dampened...noticed a few " differences" and plans on keeping the car....nuff said.
my opinion, and of several rebuilders who have seem the insides of mini's getting parted out that cone in with solid dampers.....who happens be a racer too, is running without a famper trashes the bearings....will they fail in a couple years of normal driving...maybe not...longer, you bet...how long, who knows. If a person just wants the cheapest way to get the car on the road, going undamped is cheaper, but WILL shorten bearing and seal life, and be much harder on the oil pimp....fact. but other fact, many folks sre just limping their cars along for "another year" and will dump it...so feel sorry for the next owner, but they just want to save a $$. Not my choice....kinda like changing the oil, and reusing the filter imo, but the choice has been made. It DOES gauarentee the shop a LARGE amount of future bussiness in engine changes...
i too know a shop that does solid dampers....some folks want them/need to save the $$, and a shops job is to satisfy the consumer....
Then again, i also know a driver that went solid, the after a few months WENT BACK to dampened...noticed a few " differences" and plans on keeping the car....nuff said.
And you might want to leave dinian out of mini....they simply do not understand it...they were selling their kits at mini dealers (gen1) for a bit, and warrenting the cars....tge agreement was ended when dinian would usually not honor their own warrenty....
Dinian subsquently stopped developing mini parts, and stopped selling new parts...they only have "new old stock" now....that is unsold stuff. Some of it WAS nice, but they never quite got the mini figured out.......doing things like a higher preasure fuel regulator on the mini just did not pan out....ok for some, but you can see, they were the only ones to do it....there is a few different reasons. Just know, the oem said USE A DAMPER, so use it. Kinda like syenthic oil or dino....any argument there?
Dinian subsquently stopped developing mini parts, and stopped selling new parts...they only have "new old stock" now....that is unsold stuff. Some of it WAS nice, but they never quite got the mini figured out.......doing things like a higher preasure fuel regulator on the mini just did not pan out....ok for some, but you can see, they were the only ones to do it....there is a few different reasons. Just know, the oem said USE A DAMPER, so use it. Kinda like syenthic oil or dino....any argument there?
Here is the message I got from him "Lol tell him to go to his,local community college and take automotive classes or drop $25k at uti. How else they gonna spin a belt ? The rubber design helps with NHV , if a mini runs better with no mufflers and poly bushings why doesnt mini do those too NHV or noise harshness vibration is a term they use to describe the whole department of people in charge of making a car quieter. Thats why dumb things like dual mass flywheels exist. Less clutch chatter and smooth engagement. Another thing the s has the justa doesnt is the dual mass. Wonder if hes gonna say lightweight wheels ruin wheel bearings too. I know Dinan performance hates soild pulleys but every car is different and plenty of cars have been running around with them for years and not failed."
if a mini runs better with no mufflers and poly bushings why doesnt mini do those too


