I saw on Speed the other day that putting on a big brake kit will actually lower your hp and was recorded to do so on their dyno. They had installed an exhaust that was shown to give 5hp on a RSX and when they went the dyno it showed a loss of hp. They made some calls and it was contributed to the big brake kit. Although the kit was actually less weight than stock it created more inertia and thus lowered hp. Interesting yes? They said that they wont lose anything on the track because of the excellent stopping power they will be able to brake later entering a turn.

 

rotating mass can be a pain in the butt

 

To clarify: BB kits could affect wheel horsepower, but they don't affect the output of the engine.
It would be interesting to see the relationship to the rotor's size, putting the rotational mass further away from the hub, and horsepower. Some bb kits weigh the same, or less than the stock brakes, but because they have a larger rotor the rotational mass is further away from the hub.
Heavier brakes aren't great for handling. Unsprung weight is much more detrimental to a car's handling than suspended weight. But, as Weaver said: it's all about carrying your speed for as long as possible.

 

thought more people might want to see this so......BUMP!

 

weaver, it's possible the new calipers are "dragging" on the rotors even when you aren't using the brakes. Some big brake kit manufacturers do this so that the pads will stay warm at all times to give optimum bite in the event of a sudden emergency stop. For instance, the new Mercedes Benz SLR's calipers are constantly massaging the rotors for this very reason.

_________________

'04 BRG/B S, stockified

 

Hi guys...

I can attest to the magic of superlight weight brakes on the Mini. Randy (Maxmini) took the "Mule" out for a test
after we installed our new device for better throttle respons, he come back laughing telling me that the brakes were so incredible that it was more fun braking then accelerating ....Hey dude how about throttle response...
Team M7
562-712-3270

 

With an ABS equipped car, how does changing the brakes make the car stop any faster?

Since the stock brakes can lock up the wheels unless the pads are overheated or the fluid is boiling, I can't see how it makes any difference.

 

It really doesnt change the ability to stop faster per say, it helps with heat on race scenerios, or lot of braking, mountains etc etc. You do gain some faster stopping but not huge amounts like some expect but a long day on a road course when brake heat and fade are high is when the big brakes come in......

 

We add the capability of switching of the ABS....

And as the discs are ceramic, the brake pads transfers the material to the disc, thus adding higher friction coefficient
compared to pad to steel systems.

peter

_________________
Lightest and fastest in SoCal

 

I have slotted and driled rotors on my car which most would think is at least a small upgrade to the stock configuration. I have 29000 miles on the car a large portion of those miles in the great canyons we have out here in La la Land as well as on the track. They are NOTHING compared to the ones in Peter's car. Ask anyone who has taken a ride in that car and take it from one who drove it , they WORK! i dont really give a shXX about all the mumbo jumbo all i can say is the stopping force was so great and so much of a surprise my *** lifted out of the damn race bucket as I was only taking it down to the corner and back and hadn't put my belts on. ( my bad ) We can settle this discussion real easy here . If ANYBODY out in the L.A area wants a ride for themselves I think Peter will be more than happy to oblige. Come to think of it there is a certain Viper ASC at willow springs that can attest to the brake performace in a big way LOL .

 

Yuppers, heavier rotating mass sucks. Just compare s-lights to some real rims.

As for stopping, ABS just stocks lock-up. When you pour a bunch of heat into the stock rotors, you will end up in lock-up much faster. I know it seems counter intuitive, but threshold breaking is all about hit the brakes hardest when they can dissipate the heat the fastest. The more heat the breaks can absorb, the faster you stop. Personally, I love ABS on the street, but prefer non-abs on the track.

Having driven a race car with some stellar brakes, I can just imagine what peter's brakes must be like.

Ubercooper

 

I am skeptical of the dyno variation explanation. If that were so, would we be seeing major variations between cars who had lightened/not lightened wheels, for example, where the rotating weight change is on the order of 15lbs/wheel, considerably more that attributed to a rotor weight differential.

 

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=24982

 

>> They are NOTHING compared to the ones in Peter's car. Ask anyone who has taken a ride in that car and take it from one who drove it , they WORK! i dont really give a shXX about all the mumbo jumbo all i can say is the stopping force was so great

I had the pleasure to ride with M7 for a short bit in Vegas. Not only is the decelleration addicting, but also the keen smell those brakes emit. Certainly the strongest braking action I've ever felt in a MINI, period.

>> We can settle this discussion real easy here . If ANYBODY out in the L.A area wants a ride for themselves I think Peter will be more than happy to oblige. Come to think of it there is a certain Viper ASC at willow springs that can attest to the brake performace in a big way LOL .

Take him ip on it. Remember the MINI ad (on the miniusa.com site) that has a mini pull into the carnival, and a couple of strangers run up to the owner saying "we're next". LOL



_________________
Happy Motorin'

 

Can anyone explain how bigger brakes stop a car better than normal brakes when the normal brakes can lock up the wheel?

I'm really trying to understand here. I'm not trying to be a pain.

It's just that when the wheel locks up, you have enough brake power.
I can't see how any more will help.

So I still don't see the use for bigger brakes.

I do agree that if you overheat your brake to the point of failure (Brake-fade) you need to change something.
Is that the only situation we are talking about in this thread? Bigger brakes because your existing brakes a failing?

 

Trippy you aren't being a pain this time and I admit I don't understand it either but more importantly than that I have EXPERIENCED it and apparently so has the other gentleman who posrted earlier. The offer still stands come try it for yourself,Randy

BTW trippy to keep everything out in the open I recently became a partner in M7 and I know that was a concern for someone regarding my postings. But to paraphrase an old movie " I only report the facts ma'am" :smile:

 

Hi Trippy...


For the brake questions you have, here's my take on the matter...

The stock brakes are ok not fantastic, but good enough for spirited street driving and occasional track days.
To enhance the stock brakes you could add SS-braided brakelines and change the brake fluid to a good synthetic
variety. A good brake pad would further enhance the package and possibly lower the dust problem.

Next step is to add a gas slotted or drilled rotor to the stock calipers this in my opinion is more of a visual
uppgrade then a performance uppgrade. Your not going to stop faster but during spirited canyon driving
or a track day expect cooler running brakes. there's a caveat to consider, cross drilled brakes do have a tendency
to crack which Randy can attest to.

Large brakes/kit, 12.9"-13" with big calipers (4-6 pistons) these are it for the hard core set, the racer
and the fast city driver :smile: :smile: He's a great guy and I know you guy's will
enjoy dealing with him as much as I do...The only problem would be that his car is to HEAVY from all the stereo
crap in the boot.....

peter horvath
Team M7

562-712-3270

 

thanks andy i had forgotten that i accidentally posted this twice. surprised one wasnt erased.

 

There may be a rare exception to this, but in most cases big brake kits will not stop faster than stock brakes at 100% pedal force.

Here is information taken from a SCC article about stoptech big brake upgrade...

"Surprisingly, though, the result was not shorter stopping distances. The stock 350Z was able to drop anchor from 60 mph in 113 feet, and our newly modified car was doing it in 119 feet."

I read another article about a Ford Focus with Brembo brake upgrade with similar results. The Big brake kits actually increased stopping distances by a few feet in almost all the articles I've ever read. Tire grip would have much more of an effect on stopping distance than big brake kits, but even this can be disputed, because alot of things happen technically in the ABS system. A good article is on Stoptechs web site here: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...ake_122701.htm

Stoptech has alot of good information and answers to questions brought up here and in other posts. It's funny, you see all this information on Stoptechs site and then you go to Brembo's site with little technical information and they claim 20-30% reduction in stopping distances... Liar, liar pants on fire...

_________________

 

>>The bottom line trippy is that yes a bigger brake can stop faster, as the clamping force is higher the
>>pad surface area larger and friction coeficient is greater.

I agree that you will get a larger force slowing down the wheel with a larger brake bad and more force pushing the pad into the rotor, but that in itself will not slow the car down any faster.

>>If you hold the brake at the treshold not allowing the brake to lock up prematurely, the deaccelerative
>>forces will stop the car faster.

I also agree with this, but now you are talking about a car with the ABS system disabled, and I don't think many people will be willing to drive around with that important system deactivated.


Now, to support your idea, this explanation would have been a good one for you to post instead.

From: Mad Science Engineering Network

"Brakes do not stop cars--not directly. That is why they are called wheel brakes. The wheel brakes stop the wheel. Tires stop the car. Antilock brake systems (ABS) stop cars faster (most of the time) because they prevent wheel locking. A locked wheel typically has a lower tire-road friction than when rolling with some slippage. "

"If you want to stop a car in the shortest possible distance, you first should apply the brakes very rapidly. The rotating components of a car, mostly the wheel-tire assemblies, provide about 5 percent of the vehicle's kinetic energy. Rapidly braking the wheels helps reduce this energy and also starts the tire tread deformation needed to maximize tire-road forces. Since the wheels are directly bolted to the brake drum or disc, almost any torque can be used. More is better in this operation."

"Brakes that are large enough to just lock the wheels (but no more) will complete a stop as fast as larger brakes. However, larger brakes may reduce the time to initiate braking of the tires. Since this is at the beginning of braking (when the vehicle is moving fast), a small savings of time can shorten stopping distance by a significance amount."

Now, here's the difficulty.

1) The bigger brakes can stop the rotating mass of the brake/wheel unit faster, and that effect is the only thing the causes the stopping distance to be shorter.

2) The bigger brakes increase the angular moment of inertia of the brake/wheel unit, and that effect will lengthen the time required to stop the wheel and cause the braking distance to be longer.

So, which effect wins out?

I'm sure your car stops fast, but I think it's the tires, not the brakes from what I have read so far.

Also, YOU personally need larger brakes for the track. No argument there.

For the other MINI owners who are thinking of spending money on a bigger brake kit so that they can have some fun spirited driving around town, and think they will be able to stop faster. Get better tires instead.

 

Is it a safe assumption that brake setups with similar capabalities would perform better on a hyptothetical stripped out racecar compared to a hypothetical car with a boat anchor stereo setup in the boot?

--
Cheese

 

>>It's just that when the wheel locks up, you have enough brake power.
>>I can't see how any more will help.
>>
Bigger brakes give you a greater margin before the brakes overheat and fade. That's it in a nutshell. As a result, they may also provide better modulation under repeated heavy braking. As you say, if you can lock them up (an impressive feat with ABS :smile you have enough stopping power. The big brake question is "how many times can you lock them up before you can't anymore?"

 

>>>If you hold the brake at the treshold not allowing the brake to lock up prematurely, the deaccelerative
>>>forces will stop the car faster.

>I also agree with this, but now you are talking about a car with the ABS system disabled, and I don't think many
>people will be willing to drive around with that important system deactivated.

Can't you hold the brake at the threshold of locking up with the ABS on? And won't that be where the shorter stopping distances will be reached with these sort of brakes? Won't the ABS activate once it senses the actual wheel lock instead of it activating before it locks up (at the threshold)? How would it know the tire will lose its grip until it actually does as every tire and wheel is different?


>>Is it a safe assumption that brake setups with similar capabalities would perform better on a hyptothetical
>>stripped out racecar compared to a hypothetical car with a boat anchor stereo setup in the boot?

Surely, isn't weight everything?

 

>>Is it a safe assumption that brake setups with similar capabalities would perform better on a hyptothetical stripped out racecar compared to a hypothetical car with a boat anchor stereo setup in the boot?
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
This is a excellant point but I have also drive a lot of different Mini's at the shop and most of them are the stock wieght or evene in some cases lighter.All this talk won't matter a bit to those that give it a try in person and not over the keyboard.The offer still stands to those local come by and try it . :smile: Randy

 

If you're sincerely in the market for a big brake kit, call Dave Zeckhausen. He'll give it to you straight. He's hands down the most intelligent person I've spoken to regarding performance brakes and coincidentally owns an a company specializing in aftermarket brakes!

http://www.zeckhausen.com/

You might coax him into posting here (we drew him on mini2 a while back), but lets not waste his time if nobody actually want to buy these things.


--
Cheese