>>Andy@ross-tech wrote:
>>
>>If vendors are scared off when their claims are questioned, then they are in the wrong business.
>>

I think all of us appreciate your persistence to a degree. But I think you sometimes go past the point of persistence and it starts becoming a critical attack on everything the vendor says. Randy came on here and gave his opinion based on his thinking toward the subject. I don't think Randy ever said this was scientific proof. You can take it for what it is worth, an opinion. You can choose to agree or disagree with it. You critically attacking the comments to the point of ad naseum does not benefit the discussion or board. I know that you like calculations. They are great, but they have a purpose. They help to define something, but calculations in and amongst themselves cannot predict and determine everything. For example the heat transfer calculations that you will show, do not take into account imperfections in the shaft and bearing, incosistent structural integrity of the product....That is why calculations have their place and testing have their place. A calculation cannot predict everything that occurs in the real world. If that is the case then we wouldn't need to perform structural integrity tests in a laboratory environment.

I think we need to lay off the vendors. There isn't any vendor here that doesn't have some degree of prejudice toward their ideas and findings. We are all human. We just have to realize that and take everything with a grain of salt. Pressure the vendor to a point and if the response isn't too your liking and the vendor seems frusturated, then maybe a phone contact would be more beneficial. You may still never get the response you want. But to just keep attacking to the point the vendor leaves I think is counterproductive to the board. I know some vendors who are not even interested in supporting NAM because of the negative feedback they have received from other vendors who are either on NAM or have visited NAM. In my opinion we are a great community, and quite frankly one that I think is unique. I just hope the uniqueness maintains a positive flavor and not taint the taste of newcomers to the point that our community deteriotates.

That is all I have to say on the subject. Now onto the fun stuff, of reading new posts.

 

Very well-said.

 

>>>>actually yes it was implied. re-read my post and the following post from mini madness....

this was coming from madness right after my post about how the west coast boys (i didnt even know who davecsumini was talking about, apparently it was mini madness....) jumped to conclusions and how maybe they need expert advice such as Randy's..... thats when he replied with that comment to insinuate it was his software. That and then the word from that incident got out that it was anyway.

So, bottom line Randy was not being "egotistical." His attention was brought to this thread from his own forums anyway.

I for one have supported both Randy's posts and Andy's posts in this forum, as you can learn a lot from both. I just hate to see the bickering here as i do think it is a trivial issue. I think Randy has made a point to be neutral when reporting events, and just for the record, after talking to him about that incident, he STILL recommended that pulley to me, citing he believes it was an isolated incident, and for my application i could successfully use that item (which of note was NOT his...). so the marketing issue goes right out the window right there.

Now, all the talk about heating to certain temperatures is beyond my scope of knowledge, so i am not following. It does appear that too much weight was being put on one given thing..... someone's integrity.

anyway, bygones, i was mainly posting to correct Coopertino (in a friendly way, mind you), and to save Randy some face.

-ABT-


**EDIT: i had not seen page 4 of this thread when i posted this and did not realize peace was made. sorry i didnt mean to stir anything up again, just trying to put in my .02 cents. no harm, no foul!**
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<<sig>>

 

ABT,

Sorry I don’t see the connection. Because this other vendor states something about custom software. Is this where you are getting this from? If so I think you are way off base here in assuming that Mr. Webb is the only one doing custom software. It is all custom software out there.

I think you boyz assume that this thread was about Randy because you believe the world revolves around him. Clearly this is not the case.

Another point that Randy is neutral would be like consumer reports selling products they review. Come on now!

No vendor can be neutral and this is just a gimmick that Randy has sold you on to get you to buy more product. This is referred to as the buddy syndrome. I am sure that he just like ever other sales man sell things according to margins etc. No different than anyone else. There is NO God among vendors. Just Vendors trying to make a living. For those of you who think so e-mail me and I got some deals for you.

 

Wow did this thread get out of hand! Since ABT and Randy seem to think that this is some sort of personal attack against them, pure speculation and paranoia in our opinion, we will state this and nothing more on this thread. This was not his software and we never insinuated it was so please stop making this into more that it really is. We feel there is no need to make attacks against other vendors and it's simply unprofessional. Thats not what were about. Our decision to use NGK's is our own based on our hard work, experiance, and connections with BMW nothing more. So run whatever plug your heart desires and we will continue to offer products that maintain reliabity and perfomance.

 

Wow I guess I did read the post and not into the post as other seem to have done.

I guess I will never understand this vendor thing here at NAM.

 

>>Wow I guess I did read the post and not into the post as other seem to have done.
>>
>>I guess I will never understand this vendor thing here at NAM.

I know what you mean by reading "into the post." Couldn't we all have a peaceful discussion here on NAM instead of all those attacks? If there's any questions or uncertainty regarding any statement, one could address it in a respectful manner without direct attacks. Often, assumptions can lead to misunderstandings, resulting in unnecessary arguments as seen in this thread. Sometimes, a little clarification could easily resolve the issue. :smile:

Although there might be differences in opinions between different tuners, I sincerely respect each's professional opinion. Moreover, I totally appreciate them for sharing their knowledge and experiences with us on NAM. Their product preference is often based on their accumulative experiences, which can vary substantially depending on the incidents encountered by the tuner and the extent of modification of the vehicle. In the end, it only benefits us as consumers, that there are many product selections. I'm sure that both Denso and NGK manufacture quality spark plugs, as both are employed by car companies as OEM plugs.

Thank you all for participating in this thread! Happy motoring! :smile:

 

I totally agree, the last thing we need is vendors batteling it out against each other.

I dont have as much patients as I use to with vendors so some posts I type can sound hostile. I really dont mean them to be but after you have spent as much money as I have its frustrating.


Aprox 60% of everything I have purchased has no data or end's up coming up short in some way. It is very disapointing and it seems that folks are just out to make money not to sell equipment that is all they say it is.

 

>>ABT,
>>
>>Another point that Randy is neutral would be like consumer reports selling products they review. Come on now!
>>
>>No vendor can be neutral and this is just a gimmick that Randy has sold you on to get you to buy more product. This is referred to as the buddy syndrome. >>


dude, don't start this.

And same goes to Madness. I am not one of "randy's boys", i am not a hugger, i just say things like i see them. When i first got into the mini world, mini madness and mini mania were the first two tuners/sites i had heard of, and the first ones i looked at. The sites are great (especially madness - killer site), prices are fair, but the offerings are not as varied as i would have liked. Being an ex-VW guy, i am used to sites that offer HUGE variety. anyway, after scouring the web on sites like this and mini2, i heard about randy's site and checked out webb. I feel his site, although not the most creatively designed, offers the widest variety of everything - intakes, exhausts, etc. True, he only offers one pulley, but everything else is great. Madness for example (and i use you for example b/c you are actually reading the thread) only offers one kind of intake, and two types of exhaust. Other than that randy's site doesn't edge out madness by much at all. I like the fact that madness has stage kits on their site - that is something randy doesn't offer. But randy's interface on his "catalog" pages is just great - all items listed on ONE page with their descriptions and horsepower listings. Plus most of those items randy has dynoed himself. he didn't just take manufacturer claims (note: i am not claiming you do this madness!!! but i know people who do). Randy also lists more than one type of software, even though he has his own. He could just as easily offer only his own, but he doesn't.

I can't say he is for any one given brand only, b/c although he may recommend the alta intake and pulley, he won't recommend the alta exhaust. so i don't see any ONE brand loyalty - i like that. diversify. Plus his prices are pretty damn decent.

If i think he's so great (according to you guys), tell me why i haven't dropped one cent on his shop? i have already ordered small items from here and there, but not one from him yet. I have ordered more from AmD than from Webb. I just have a lot of respect for a tuner out there who has the ***** to recommend a competitor's product over there own given the right circumstances. Its too easy for a tuner to say "my intake is just what you need" when in fact another may be more appropriate. And considering he is also ONE of the only tuners out there who doesn't make his own products (note: i don't count the software in this b/c its not really his own, but powerchips), i trust randy to be objective. Don't believe me? then follow his forums for awhile. I have and i have seen him recommend some unusual stuff to people, but it always worked.

And last but not least Randy is also one of the most diplomatic tuners i have ever seen on a bulletin board. Its too easy to get mad at schmucks on here - (madness knows what i'm talking about ) so i understand why some tuners get frustrated and mouth of to people on BBS's.... but i have never seen Randy be anything other than diplomatic to people. VERY professional.

Finally i would like to say i never directly criticized Mini Madness, i don't know why he gets offended and starts pointing fingers. If you re-read my post i made a guesstimate about whoever davescmini was talking about - vaguely referred to as "west coast boys." I had no idea if this was a shop or group of enthusiasts or a freakin car club for all i know. And no evidence or explanation was given for the change in spark plugs. That is why i said what i did. I no longer stand by my comment, but i never apologized since it wasn't a direct insult, and hardly an "attack" as so many people like to call it.

And no Coopertino, i don't think Webb has the only software in the world. And yes, i think you read too much into that post. I didn't spend half as much time thinking about it WRITING it as you did reading it.

-ABT-

 

 

RandyBMC wrote on Feb 17, 2004:
Has the "image situation" been sorted out yet? I'm curious to see the pics.