OK, We were having an interesting technical discussion, I show you where you were mistaken and you accused me of being a troll. There is no way you'll learn. You just won't admit you're wrong.

Bye

Dave

 

I didn't say you were a troll; I said I couldn't decide if you were trolling or if you really believed what you were saying.

But if you want to use that as an excuse to abandon the discussion and not respond to the obvious holes in your story that I countered with, I suppose that's your right. Feigning insult and walking away is certainly easier than coming up with an explanation of how routing fumes through the turbo and intercooler (without clogging up the intercooler, mind you) on their way to the combustion chamber is a design improvement.

 

Let's try a slight course change for this thread (to keep it from getting locked)...

---------

Despite the differing postulations of PCV function on the N18, I think we can all happily agree that there is near consensus on a couple of items central to the core purpose of this thread:

- Is the OCC needed on the N18? The answer appears to be that an OCC would provide value at least equal to that shown on the earlier R56 engines (and perhaps much more if certain suspected design changes are actually real).

- Is there a vendor offering an OCC for sale somewhere that is advertised as being compatible with the N18 based on actual integration and testing? Apparently not.

Please thrash your favorite MINI vendor accordingly.

 

Gil-galad,

I appreciate the 'level-set' on this thread getting us back on track...

I agree with your summary of the main purpose of this thread. (OCC needed for 2011 N18 and who sells it?)

 

***Contacting all 2011 MCS owners in Arizona!***

I received an email reply from Phillip Felice at BSH Speedshop. They have moved forward with development of an OCC kit for the N18 internally but they do not yet have a car to do a test fit. The majority of development is complete, they just need to do the final fitting. They are looking for an N18 owner in Arizona who'd be willing to help them out with the fitting.

So, here's your chance to help out a lot of other expectant MINI owners and get a custom fit OCC from the experts at the same time.

The BSH contact info is:
602-606-7973 and
phil@bshspeedshop.com

Please help get the word out.

 

One theory I have for why people get more collections during the winter than in the summer - The can is COLD in the winter hence more condensation on the inside. Not that the engine makes more gunk during the winter.

Just like when you have a cold beer on the table next to a warm beer. the cold one is gonna get a puddle of water around it.

 

You and your "science", Blasphame I say.

We all know that the oil fairy is more productive in the winter because the cold weather keeps her wings cooler allowing for a faster flying speed thus the ability to add more oil to your catch can while you sleep.

Silly rabbit. That is the more logical explanation.

 

Gave them a call yesterday morning to volunteer, and was told that they've now got one lined up within the next week or two - if that doesn't work out, then my Clubman is the alternate!

 

That is excellent news. Thanks much!

 

I went to My local MINI dealer and talked to the shop foreman. The 2011 MINIs have a different head and valve cover, with 4 passages from the space under the valve cover to the intake ports, one for each port. This is what replaces the hose from the passenger side of the valve cover to the intake manifold. He said that there was a problem with oil pooling at the throttle on the earlier engines.

I'm wondering if BSH has a way of blocking off those ports on their new design.

Dave

 

Very interesting.

Sounds similar to what they did with the recently updated intake manifold for pre-2011 engines.


If it's still directing fumes to the intake ports, though, carbon buildup may still be an issue. And it doesn't sound like a catch can is do-able any more to help prevent that.

 

There is one school of thought that would suggest that an OCC in the line between the valve cover and the turbo inlet pipe, even in the presence of "passages" between the valve cover and intake ports, might still be of some marginal value even if less efficient than the "traditional" approach.

The following graph is applicable to a non-turbo Toyota but the blow-by gas production curve illustrates the point:



The vast majority of blow-by gas production appears to happen under acceleration, at WOT, and under boost when intake manifold vacuum is weak (or under pressure, in the case of boost). Under these conditions, the gasses physically couldn't pass directly into the intake manifold and would all be forced to pass into the turbo inlet pipe (and, theoretically, could be routed through an OCC). In this scenario an OCC could provide some level of help during these high blow-by gas production periods. It would certainly help keep crap out of the turbo and intercooler.

By all accounts the blow-by production is greatly reduced in low throttle, high vacuum conditions -- not much in the way of bad crankcase vapors being produced. That's probably how BSH could get away with the boost tap plug in their OCC solution without causing over-pressure in the crankcase leading to other, more severe problems. Sadly though, even though far less gasses are produced, the engine spends a lot more time in these conditions and an OCC so implemented would do nothing to help during these times.

Though, there is one thing still bothering me: if there are indeed open passages between the valve cover and intake ports as DDave describes, what prevents the turbo from pressurizing the crankcase via these passages (in addition to the intake manifold) under boost conditions? This would certainly be big time bad ju ju. Doesn't there need to be a PCV/check valve in these passages to prevent it from happening?

 

Gil, you stripped out the context of what I said. I was speaking specifically of carbon buildup in the intake ports. A can on the hose to the CAI, while beneficial in other ways, doesn't do a whole lot for that.

 

Agree.

 

The latest news received today from Justin at BSH on their efforts to nail down the OCC fitment for the '11 MCS N18 engine, for those of us impatiently waiting in the wings --

"As of right now we still have not completed the catch can for your car. We aren’t too far out on it but it is going to require that we machine completely new fittings."

Not sure what additional machining would be necessary. The mounting points would appear to be identical. The attachments to the turbo intake and valve cover may be slightly different, but I thought these were just flanges accommodating the ends of the PCV hose.

Sure seems to be taking a long time...

 

just curious as to what type of fitment issues would we have if '11 owners tried installing the occ for the '07-'10 mcs. is the diameter of the pcv outlet on top of the valve cover different? i don't see what possible issues we would run into if we did this. dirty air comes out of pcv, dirty air gets cleaned up by occ, clean-ish air goes into intake. are the '11 owners waiting for bsh to determine if there's a second pcv that needs to be accounted for? i've owned my mcs for 2.5 weeks now and it just topped 1k miles. i would love to get an occ on it soon and was just wondering what the reservations are. hopefully someone can chime in if i'm overly simplifying the issue. thanks in advance if you do!

 

I asked the shop foreman at my dealer about the '11 Cooper S PCV system and why it doesn't have a hose off of the back of the head cover like the '10 Cooper S. He told me that on the N18 engines the PCV system is internal, it is inside the head cover, with passages in the head casting to the intake ports. The reason for the change was that there was a problem with oil pooling at the throttle body on the N14 engines.

I'm guessing that BSH will have to design a block off plate, that fits under the head cover, for the N18 engines, so their Oil Catch Can will work like it does on the N14 engines. I imagine they would want to also have a boost tap as part of the design, so their methanol injection system can be used on the N18 engine.

Dave

 

well, that kinda sucks - that there's no way to prevent exhaust gases from being passed into our intake. but i don't see how that should stop the '11 mcs owners from putting an occ at the one visible pcv location. at least then you're not feeding dirty air thru the turbo and i/c. and whenever a solution for the other pcv outlet is found, we can just do that mod then, if feasible.

 

Dave, what the shop foreman said to you may, in fact, be true but count me as a pigheaded skeptic who simply won't believe it until I see visual evidence.

I'm not doubting the redesigned intake to mitigate oil collecting in there but I'm not yet ready to buy the part about the mystery internal passages. From a simple physical principles perspective open passages couldn't work on a boosted engine without a PCV valve or valves to keep the turbo from pressurizing the crankcase and valve cover -- and PCV valves are susceptible to fatigue and failure over time. Where are these valves? I don't see anything comparable on any parts listing, even among the components under the valve cover. Why on earth would any self-respecting engineer mount a potential failure item like this internal to the engine? From a design perspective it would be unprecedented and downright silly. Again, that's not to say it's not true but I must see to believe.

I'm much more inclined to think that the PCV line between the valve cover and the intake manifold on the N14 was simply eliminated on the N18. The engineers decided that they could take advantage of the intake pipe upstream of the turbo at idle as a vacuum source (instead of intake manifold vacuum at idle as the vacuum source) just like all of the folks running the BSH boost tap on their N14 engines have already shown you can do. And yes, that would mean ALL of the crankcase vapors are venting through the turbo and intercooler and crap is probably collecting in there -- all the more reason to get an OCC in the loop ASAP.

Not trying to start a flame war. Just offering a respectful difference of opinion.

 

so basically, using the current bsh occ designed for the r56 to bridge the valve cover and the intake would be a good idea? i'm still not sure why 2011 owners are waiting.

 

I thought so too, until I received the info from BSH in Post #65. Something is evidently incompatible but not sure what. So still waiting...

 

I don't know if your MINI dealer is as accommodating as my local dealer, but you could just go there and ask to see a 2011 head and engine cover, if you have to see it to believe it.
I don't have a 2011, so it really doesn't matter to me. I asked the shop forman in passing, because I saw it being discussed on these forums. I went to him about the best place to hook up a temerature gage, he took me out into the shop and showed me on an N14 engine that was about to go into a customer's car. The guy was a fountain of information. I don't think he would B.S. me.

Dave

 

but looking from the top of the engine only tells us that there's at least one pcv outlet that goes from the valve cover to the intake. i think gil makes a decently valid point that internalizing a pcv would be illogical. that's not calling into question how truthful your foreman is. but it does call into question the design of the system if it is as your foreman describes it. hopefully a diagram of if/how a 2nd pcv is routed shows up soon!

 

Any news on the 2011 N18 OCC issue?

 

Nothing here.