Ulf,
I have a question no one has ask. Does any auto manufacture switch the polarity at the coil as the PB does? It seems a few electronic parts and reprograming the ECU would be easy. Manufactures spend a lot of money for better MPG and emissions. Why aren't any doing this now or done it in the past?

Also, would you comment more on systems that use a capacitor and plugs without resistors such as the Direct Hits system. I read they have very high peak currents in a short time period. Are these systems as effective or more effective than the PB?

Thanks for all your time and info.

Charles

P.S. I have no problem understanding your graphs.

 

now that is interesting. typically for TIG welding, negative electrodes are used with trace elements added to the tungsten to promote arc initiation ( 2%Thorium lowers the voltage required to initate an arc). More heat is directed to the work with the electrode negative (you are welding, after all). any relationship to spark ignition?

 

OK, I will keep posting but I will NOT engage with any of Trippy's comments any more. Just to close this subject, I have NOT changed the story I have only explained the same thing again from a different point of view and with different words.


ColoradoMark:
I am glad you can follow along, so I am happy to continue.


CharlesWil:
Mercedes is using a new Ignition concept on the MAYBACH car that is switching the Polarity at the coil during the spark. They have developed an extreme expensive ignition system. I know the people who have been involved with the development of the system and I have seen their circuit diagram and pictures of the unit. It is heavy and complicated but it does work. I heard that the system is over $ 2000 in production. But with a car like that, $ 2000 for a production ignition system is not much money.

I do not know of any other manufacturer that has used Polarity Switching technology.

Why are they not using it?
I am not sure!
Sometimes I wonder what is going on with car manufacturers.
In the late 1980's we had the best ignition systems in cars. Then they made ignition cheaper and cheaper. As I said earlier, General Motors makes the worse ignition in the new corvette. I think as long as car manufacturers get away with the standards they have to fulfill, they will make it as cheap as possible.

Look at the MINI ignition. It is cheap! It is a dual outlet waste spark system that should not even be on that car. Honda made the Insight Lean Burn car with 2 high quality coils per cylinder and is achiving over 60 MPG. This is only possible with HIGH QUALITY ignition systems.

I just looked at the new Mercedes S 500 (2004 model) and I was amazed of how cheap the ignition system is on that car. Then on the other side we see high quality single coil ignition systems on the new BMW 745.

Then take a look at VW. They had to recall 800,000 (yes, eight hundred thousand ) cars to exchage faulty ignition coils. They paid the coil manufacturer less than $ 3.00 per coil and then they are surprised that the product will not last.

It is very unfortunate, but the car manufactures in general do NOT make good ignition systems. Most of the time it is outsourced anyway and a only driven by price.

I strongly believe that our Plasma Booster makes a significant difference to the performance of a coil ignition system. I also believe that I have found a very efficient way of producing the Polarity change. If you look for patents in this field, you will find actually a lot of different ways of how this is achived. For the OEM it is just too expensive.

In regards to the CAPACITOR discharge
There are many different kinds of secondary capacitive discharge ignition.
Nology Hotwires and Direct Hits are just some of them.

They work! There is no question about it.
But they have to be in the correct environment to have an effect on the combustion.

The most important part is the 0-OHM resistance spark plug.
Even if the spark plug has a resistance of only 0.1 OHM, it will not work.
Most spark plugs have a resistance in the range of 1000 to 5000 ohms

If you are using a 0.0 OHM spark plug, then and only then can the Capacitor discharge the spark in a very fast mode. This discharge mode is called BREAKDOWN ignition. In this phase of the spark, the spark current can reach over 1000 AMPERE. The largest spark current I have measured was abut 2,500 AMPERE. This is a HUGE amount of amperage but it last only for a few nano seconds.

It works PERFECTLY on older cars without OBD (On Board Diagnostics)
But if you install the Hotwires or the Direct hits on any new car with OBD or OBD-II and if you are using 0-ohm spark plugs, it will usually cause some big problems.

And this leads in to the comment from JLM:
Yes, you can compare a TIG welder and an older ARC welder with the ignition system.

The older ARC welder was a DC discharge with long spark duration
The new TIG welder system is a high frequency muli spark AC discharge system

The Plasma Booster is creating an ULTRA FAST AC discharge compared to the stock system that creates a slow DC discharge

Regards

Ulf

 

>>Ulf,
>>Manufactures spend a lot of money for better MPG and emissions. Why aren't any doing this now or done it in the past?
>>
>
>>
>>Charles
>>
>>P.S. I have no problem understanding your graphs.


I just picked out the part that says Manufactures spend a lot of money for better MPG.

My friend bought a Chevy diesel with an allison trany. He got poor millage pulling a trailer. He then put on a Banks exhaust system (I'm not sure what all was included but i could find out). He get better millage AND more power.

So my question is why no dealer installs this at the factory?

Or a two speed (overdrive unit) in the driveshaft of cars with rear wheel drive. Was in all the car magazines back in the 60s but never came out. (I think it was made by Borg Warner)

Earl

 

Ulf, a big thank you for availing yourself to a mulititude of questions. You have spent much time educating us, and I feel that you have represented yourself, and your product admirably...

I got a PB from Peter some time ago, and I certainly noticed a difference on my then stock ignition system. I wish you the best on the patent quest!

Hey, so what do you drive??? I'm going to guess that you have a Bimmer

 

SCURVES

The new Chevy Diesel is actually an excellent engine. It has the ultra high pressure injection and a really good efficientcy. But even on good quality engines we see the savings effect of the car manufactures.

But, on one side this is good, because it keeps the aftermarket going.

If every car manufacturer would build the BEST ignition system, I would be out of business, LOL and so would be almost every member of SEMA.

TonyB
You are welcome and thanks for your nice comments.

What do I drive ... you guessed right I have an new BWM 745 Li

My BMW

And you know what, I love this car more than any other car I ever had.

Regards

Ulf

 

I would like to thank you for spending the time trying to explain your system to the MINI owners. It is nice in todays massive commercial world when the owner or president actually knows and understands what he is selling. Merry Christmas or happy Hannakuh.

Ulf have you seen a new A8L?

 

I didn't see this aspect addressed yet in this thread, so here goes, again. I understand that the spark created by the coil jumps the gap of the spark plug causing combustion of the fuel air mixture. I run a 40,000 volt coil allowing me to open the gap of the plug significantly which exposes more of the fuel air mixture creating a larger combustion kernel. Does your Plasma Booster increase the thickness of the spark by increasing the amps? What is the advantage of multiple sparks after initial combustion? It would seem that after the first spark the fuel air mixture would not be close enough to the second and following sparks to add any furthur ignition effect being that the flame front is travelling away from the point of ignition. I get some of the more basic info you've given but I still don't see exactly where the benefits are other than higher initial current to produce a thicker ignition kernel and a faster moving flame front.

Thanks

 

>>The Plasma Booster is creating an ULTRA FAST AC discharge compared to the stock
>> system that creates a slow DC discharge
>>Ulf

I think people can judge for themselves if this statement is true or not.

Using your own data:
STOCK:


PB "Enhanced"


When I look at these, and count the number of ticks from the start of the secondary
current to the peak, I get the following:

Stock: About 10 microSeconds
PB: About 25 microSeconds.

That's all I have to say. You can count just as well as I can.

_________________

 

rafthos:

Thank you for your interesting question.
This actually is a very important aspect you are bringing up.
The voltage requirements of thge initial spark is largely depending on the spark plug gap and the pressure in the cylinder.

When you drive on the highway with 65 MPH and partial load, the voltage requirement is about 5000 volts. At full open throttle and full load you might need up to 20,000 volts. Usually not more, unless you have huge turbo or supercharger pressure.

The voltage is determined by the plug gap and the pressure, NOT by the ignition coil. Many times I am coming across customers who have invested in a coil that is suppose to produce MORE voltage. And I agree, there are cases when this is helpful and necessary. But for probably 99% of the time it is not helpful at all.

When you widen the gap of the spark plug the voltage required to fire that gap will increase. And you are correct, this larger spark will create a higher probability of the mixture to be ignited, simply because more molecules are reached. The kernel of the spark will actually not increase, because the spark current is not changing.

Unfortunately there is usually also a bad side-effect by changing to a higher voltage coil. Most of the time the higher voltage potential is reached with a larger winding ratio. The standard winding ratio is about 100 : 1, meaning 100 times more windings on the secondary side of the coil.

To illustrate this:

Most Primary Peak Voltage are around 300 VOLTS
With a winding ratio of 100:1 this will result in a secondary coil voltage of
300 V x 100 = 30,000 volts

The secondary current is calculate by deviding the primary current with the winding ratio.

Say our primary current is 6 A then the secondary current is
6A / 100 = 60 mA

In order for the coil to produce a higher secondary voltage potential, The coil manufacturers usually increase the winding ratio

Lets compare the above numbers with a coil of 120:1 winding ratio

300 V x 120 = 36,000 volts

6 A / 120 = 50 mA

So, we see the voltage is increased but the current is decreased.
Almost all aftermarket coils that I have tested on an engine dyno had the ability to increase the voltage but they lost secondary current and lost Horsepower and Torque. There are some clever exceptions but not many of them.

Keep in mind, that if you change the coil from a 30,000 volt to a 40,000 volt coil, the requirement of the spark ionisation voltage will NOT change. And even if you widen the gap the difference is not big to require a new coil.

It is the CURRENT that will ignite the mixture.
Because of the higher peak to peak current of the Plasma Booster the Spark kernel is LARGER and therefor a larger quantity of molecules gets ignited.

It is actually a benefit to keep the Spark Plug gap as small as possible.
The extra LOAD on the ignition components from a larger spark plug gap are actually not good and reduce the life of the Spark Plug, Spark Plug wires and even the ignition coil. Because the higher voltage will detoriate the equipment faster.

When I test the Plasma Booster in my laboratory, I can actually HEAR the difference of the spark with and without the Plasma Booster. I have NOT done any scientific sound analysis but it is a BIG difference in sound of the spark, as soon as the Plasma Booster is turned on. Of course, this can not be tested in a car, since the noise level of the car is much higher than the noise level of teh spark.

In regards to the Multi Spark question.
I must admit, that I do not believe that there is much influence of any multi spark on a combustion. The nice part of the Plasma Booster discharge is the fact that it is a AC discharge that is ultra fast and acts as 1 spark discharge.

In comparison like a MSD discharges single sparks with a distance of MILLI seconds. The piston is moving a large distance between the sparks and the second spark has actually no influence on the combustion.


Trippy:
As I said before, NO MORE COMMENTS.

Regards

Ulf

_________________
UA
Ignition Solutions, Inc
San Diego, CA
858-586-0080

 

I've stayed quiet pretty much on this subject until I got to see the view from both sides.

First off, with over 22 years of experience working with just about every piece of high-end test equipment made (and repairing/calibrating it) and knowing the methods of sound measurement practices, I know what is going on here, and everything which Ulf presented regarding equipment setup and usage, and his technique, all measures up (so to speak). Trying to put it into laymen's terms is not easy, but he did pretty well, considering the mixed audience here. It's not easy doing so even with people experienced with such measurements.

The PB appears (to me, at least) to work by converting the conventional switched and damped flyback-type ignition circuit to an undamped ringing setup after driving the coil momentarily with an opposite polarity. This is similar to how some switch-mode power supplies work. It has the effect of 'cracking the whip'; how one takes a bullwhip and gives it a swift high-low swing with the forearm. However, most if not all the work is done by the initial one-two punch of the initial spark, the oscillations after the fact can do little if any good in the aftermath of the initial discharge. It makes for a spectacular display, with lots going on, but it's the equivalent of the saloon doors swinging after the gunfighter burst through them. It's dramatic effects.

This unit has the benefit of strengthening the initial spark. This can help even a car with a pretty decent stock system (read: MINI) achieve a very slight performance boost, and would probably be better suited for someone who has made combustion life more difficult for their engine with overdrive pulleys, nitrous, charge-air cooling, etc. than it would be for someone looking to add a magic box and nothing else and find big increases. An ignition enhancer, coupled with other tricks such as low-resistance wires, wide-gap plugs, aggressive mixture swirl, and the like make for a better overall package than just one item alone. These items also tend now to be lesser-lived as a result, but such is the price to pay for increased performance.

Multi-spark sounds good, but in 99.9% of the time (hypothetically, of course) the first spark started combustion, and all the sparking in the world afterwards does nothing. You cannot fire enough high-energy sparks in succession in a fast enough repetition rate using the coils, wires, and driving circuiitry used in automotive applications. It would take a specially constructed AC driven RF circuit for each cylinder that would not only be prohibitively expensive for what little return you would receive, but would wreak havoc on the other electronic systems in the vehicle, the radio, computers, the radios in cars a good radius away, etc. It's best to concentrate on making one very strong spark consistently than to hype machine-gun fire in a cylinder.

Ulf, again, thanks for taking the time to do this and trying to educate us, and putting up with seemingly ceaseless barrages of questions and couterpoints. I have enjoyed this thread.

Cheers!

Phil

 

Awwwwwww, Greatbear beat me to it! The massive difference after the initial discharge is quite huge between the OEM and the PB ignition. After seeing Trippy's graph, I can't HELP but think it would be beneficial.

Props to Ulf for being willing to put it all out there for us to see... you have to admit, few product inventors and/or aftermarket parts manufacturers would spend this much time discussing their products, methods, and answering questions!

 

>>you have to admit, few product inventors and/or aftermarket parts manufacturers would spend this much time discussing their products, methods, and answering questions!

Amen to that!
Thanks Ulf

 

a couple of benign questions:

isn't the energy in the spark the product of the voltage and current? What is the difference between a 20k/150ma spark and a 30k/100ma spark?

the spark gap and chamber pressure determine the minimum voltage required to initiate an arc; is this also the maximum voltage one could maintain while arcing? so that if chamber condtitions dictate 20kv to arc, a 30kv coil would only be able to hold a 20kv output. If so, what happens to the current? the fact that the 30kv coil has a larger winding ratio would imply there is less current in a 20kv spark from a 30kv coil?

isn't discharge time a factor in any igniton system? the same 20k/150ma spark in a 10 microsecond burst has a higher energy density than in a 15 microsecond burst?

what about polarity? most systems are really dc; they make use of the transformer action because they are senditg a pulse through the windings, but the polarity is positive plug electrode, negative ground. when I mentioned the TIG example, part of the tpoint was that a negative electrode will direct more heat to the ground, as opposed to a positve electrode. (TIG by the way is not just AC. It can be run DC with electrode negative or electrode positive-called reverse polarity. In fact, if you do run AC, the electrodes have to be much larger to handle the extra heat generated by the revese polarity half of the cycle.)

Practically every race engine I have seen uses MSD systems; what benefit are they getting?

 

I, too, have enjoyed this discussion. Without getting all of Ulf's equiptment for Christmas, however, I would have to use my seat-of-the-pants-o-meter to decide if the PB is for me.

To be clear, my PB-enhanced MCS will be palpably smoother, faster and more efficient? Please help me sell this to the Minister of Finance (read: wife). In how many miles will the PB's improved mileage pay for itself?

Thanks, Gene

 

Greatbear, you have made a clear and precise explanation of what I also thing
the PB does. Thank you for your participation.

This is the kind of post I expected from Ulf when he entered the discussion,
and could have been made about 40 posts ago.

Can Ulf either verify Greatbear's explanation, or say that it is wrong?
That would go a long way towards getting people to understand this device.

Greatbear, could you explain one thing more for me?

If the primary coil current is changing polarity, and we are creating multiple sparks
on the secondary side, what changes need to be made to Ulf's secondary-current
trace to make the current also change polarity, and cross the zero-current point?

PB Secondary current trace.


It looks to me that the trace would need to be lowered so tht the zero-current point
is about where 35 milliAmps is currently, and if we did that, we would lose out
on the large initial current which is where the claim of increased performance
comes from.


_________________
[img]"http://bobodyne.com/web-docs/Images/Logo.jpg[/img]

 

for the third time, i'm still looking forward to the data that shows that a "hotter spark" gives "faster combustion."

 

>>for the third time, i'm still looking forward to the data that shows that a "hotter spark" gives "faster combustion."
>>

After reading all of this I am thoroughly convinced that one could gain equal performance by simply dieting for a week.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but I'll stick to the tried and true mods...no insult intended, Ulf, I just can't justify spending money on something that *might* benefit my motor's performance (horsepower-wise, torque-wise, fuel efficiency-wise, or smoothness-wise), and for reasons that I cannot clearly understand on my own. I'm a scientist, too, and it's my own ego that prevents me from taking the plunge.

I personally think that money could be just as easily spent on driving school with benefits that far outweigh small gains in power/fuel economy, but that's my 2 cents' worth.

I do sincerely appreciate your time and effort here to educate us.

Marty

 

Ulf,

Thanks for your responses so far in this thread, I'm still interested in seeing the difference in the change in energy between the standard and plasma boosted sparks. I'm a little disappointed at your refusal to answer any of Trippy's questions anymore. As you know, part of defending a patent (and in fact, defending any scientific claim) is dealing with questions from skeptics. You are bound to encounter those with differing viewpoints from your own, but it would be much more constructive for you to answer questions, refute claims, and present your own evidence, rather than taking a stance of "I don't like you and will ignore you from now on". By refusing to answer the questions that Trippy has raised, the perception is that you are tacitly admitting that you cannot refute that data. I don't believe this is the case, and I'd really appreciate (as I am sure others would as well) if you would address the question of the zero current level for the secondary current trace.

Thanks in advance, I believe we can all learn from this discussion (I know I sure have).

 

>>for the third time, i'm still looking forward to the data that shows that a "hotter spark" gives "faster combustion." >>

I haven't found any yet, but I'm looking.

I did find this really good tutorial on ignition systems

Tutorial

We have what he calls a "Direct ignition" system.

Also, read the part about ignition wires and "Wild claims"
it's quite well written.


_________________

 

>>>>for the third time, i'm still looking forward to the data that shows that a "hotter spark" gives "faster combustion." >>
>>
>>I haven't found any yet, but I'm looking.
>>
>>I did find this really good tutorial on ignition systems
>>
>>Tutorial
>>
>>We have what he calls a "Direct ignition" system.
>>
>>Also, read the part about ignition wires and "Wild claims"
>>it's quite well writtne.
>>

Somewhat related (but also SOT), I have both read on the internet AND seen in person the dyno charts for the Nology Hotwires. No gains

And the charts I saw in person were from a turbocharged car running seriously high boost (2 bar). I dunno, I'll go with intakes, pulleys, exhausts, ECUs, springs, bars, and bigger brakes first.

M

 

In all these cases the zero-crossing level is simply a case of an AC-coupled signal (the case when using current transformers such as in the test setup) finding an average point on a DC referenced scale. You need to take the measurement in a peak-to-peak relative value using the scaling provided rather than using the absolute.

 

>>In all these cases the zero-crossing level is simply a case of an AC-coupled signal (the case when using current transformers such as in the test setup) finding an average point on a DC referenced scale. You need to take the measurement in a peak-to-peak relative value using the scaling provided rather than using the absolute.

Thank you. It's nice to get validation that I wasn't going crazy.

So, we don't really know if the initial secondary-current peak is higher
on the PB system as compared to the OEM system?

Or if it's just an effect of the test setup using an AC coupled current transformer.

 

Maybe this will help someone see what is going on here. The current is going negative when the is PB installed on an auto. You must take this into account to figure the total current. In the stock system you only reference the positive current above ground. When you install the PB you must take into account the negative current and measure peak to peak current.
Charles


_________________
When a clock is hungry, does it go back four seconds?

 

Greatbear:
Thanks for your good way of explaining with your own words. This will help some members to understand this subject even better.

flyboy2160
" for the third time, i'm still looking forward to the data that shows that a "hotter spark" gives "faster combustion." "

I will give this explanation either tomorrow or on Monday.
Today is Christmas shopping day.
But don't worry, you will get sufficient proof for this.

Trippy:
OMG, what can I say ... Looks like everyone else understands !
As I said before ... I will NOT enter in to any Kindergarden conversation with you anymore.

MartyR:
I am not here to defend the Nology Hotwires or the Direct-Hits Capacitors.
Just so much: If one would NOT use 0-OHM spark plugs one will not gain anything from using the product. As I said before, the Hotwires require a 0.0 OHM center electrode spark plug. (That is why Nology is selling the Silverstone Spark Plugs) I have been involved with Hotwires and Dyno testing and I have seen Hotwires produce Horesepower and I have also seen Hotwires NOT produce anything and I also have seen Hotwires LOOSE Horsepower.

CharlesWil:
Perfect explanation, 100% correct!
Thank you!

Regards

Ulf