So the bottom line from Thumper's jive talk is, he can't get it all together to make more power at any rpm other than up top with larger than stock valves, after all some article about V8 two valve heads says it can't be done so he can't, despite incontrovertible evidence that it can be done by someone else. In other words, if you want a broad-range performing head, look elsewhere than Thumper's product.

Fortunately for the MINI community, a head porter like Larry Widmer really has been porting heads for more than 40 years, without a 20 year interruption for another career like Thumper, has stayed on top of his porting skills and technology, has the resources to make his own valve seats and design his own valves, and can appropriately design and execute heads that make more torque and horsepower at both high and low rpm with larger than stock size valves.

 

WATCH OUT!!! The FORUM NINJA'S are on the prowl!!!

 

the blinding FACTS that people keep trying to use 30yr old technology and Normally aspirated articles to a force inducted car is still mind boggling even for the Mini community. But hey........baffle em with bull......... it still sells heads..........right?

 

Jan, I am with you on N/A vs. F/I head design theory but off-boost (vac) would a smaller valved head allow for better velocity and MPG? I would say that is true but given we have a positive displacement supercharger its not nearly that often of an occurrence besides constant speed cruising (freeway, etc)

 

I know that many of our customers have said their MPG went up after the head on long cruises. Making the VE of the engine better can only be good

I have a huge amount of data, I'm compiling now as I'm going to start a thread dedicated to cylinder heads and camshafts. It's going to take awhile as I am trying to get data I had off my old computer whose hard drive took a dump. I may have to call up dyno shops where we dyno'd to get some of the data back. I've spent more time on collector design on our race header to get the torque right where we want it for a particular application.

We just finished a project for a customers track car that just set his fastest times ever. We built a custom race header/cam and remote tune over the previous versions and custom tune by another tuner. The extreme amount of experience and data that I have, got it right the first time. Delivering the power right were the customer needed it. Having the ability to build a custom collector on our race header and knowing intimately how it reacts with our camshafts is a valuable tool. This is a service we provide to customers looking for every last bit of power. There is no other tuner out there doing this. There is a reason our R53s are that much faster. Much time on the dyno testing and then retesting on the track has given us this valuable info.

 

SSSHHH Don't tell the big secret....

 

It is no big secret that Chrysler designed our engine for a N/A Neon, that being said with the addition of the supercharger the porting is a little small for a F/I car expecialy on the exahust side. The reason that the bigger valaes perform better on the boosted car is because, the incoming air is under pressure and has no way to slow down. It has been noted in some threads here on NAM that people have went to a ported BV head and actualy lost a pound or two of boost from the increaced flow into the combustion chambers. But their cars are still making more HP/TQ. Just because your boost gauge dosent say 18psi any more(figureativly speeking), it dosent mean that you arent making more power. It just means that the flow rate of your head has lost all of the restrictions that where holding you back in the first place.

 

LOL... it is amazing that you two can remain so incorrect and think that you are all wise and totally correct. This is fine, the MINI community isnt that dense and the Performance from the smaller valve is a proven fact( depending on application of the engine). The reason for the "INTERNET", was to save all this junk, with assuming it is "Just me..." but I see that even when there is tech out there, visual aids out there, proven results out there thru the INTERNET .... You two keep with the rederick..!! This is fine... MOST that read this thread will see bickering, and yet they also will read the tech on the net.. and it will help them choose for their application.

IN NO PLACE did I say that your products are crap!! IN NO PLACE did I say Ya'll were crap...!! but from your posts and rhetoric, most will see your brutal absolutely UN professional way of doing business(?). This if fine with me, but it doesnt change the facts... buy products to your application!!

Gotta say though.. this has been fun..lol Same-o same-o

Just me................................

Thumper

 

Stop sounding so smart OR people are going to start listening to you .

I totally understand what you mean. As an example, I lost about 2-3lb's changing from the 1.6L to the 1.8L. Did I loose HP & Tq or gain Hp & Tq . Along with the lower boost you also get lower inlet temps . All this adds up to a better running engine .

LB

 

Thumper, I have been agreeing with both sides from the start, Hell I was the first to recomend keeping the small port configuration, even though it is a prooven FACT that the BIG VALVE setups DO offer more power on a RACE BUILT SETUP. For a quick car on the street YES a SMALL valve arangement might be the better option, BUT in order to maximize the power potential for a race setup, if you have the CASH go to a BIGGER valve head.

It does all come down to choosing the right parts to suit YOUR needs! Most of us here dont use our cars for drag racing, so take your quarter times and be that IDIOT standing alone at the end of the drag strip!

As for calling us CRAP I personally take it as a complement, normally when somebody starts the name calling it means they are about to loose. There are many people here that have done extencive research on heads, Some of us have been running bigger valves in our project cars since the 60's, WHY, Because they WORK FOR US. So bring on the fightin words I will be waiting

 

Hey Rick, actually the Mini engine was a joint venture BMW - Rover Group/Chrysler = Tritec... In 2003 the SC Mini engine won the International Engine of the Year Award. Chrysler used this engine right from the get go as a 1.4l in Europe maybe 1996 -7???.....From a good source - it was a BMW design. Now it's a Peugeot.... all I can think of is 3 lug nuts & tire irons...

As far as BVH - post 29 is the tell all.... loss of boost, it's a displacement blower, the same volume is there... same hose without the nozzel... just better VE..

A new SC???? I'm thinking RMW has something going on..... Jan took the time to make a head that was good from day 1....So........

 

Agreed Steve, thanks for the further insight on the Tritec, and yes the current engine "Prince Engine" is a Peugeot/Renault/BMW joint venture design, using over 10:1 compression + a turbo on another motor that was designed originaly to be Naturaly Asperaited.

I'll keep my IORN BLOCK though, they dont go boom as easily

 

Sorry... maybe I should have said..Jan and Keith?? Seeing as they were the ones that started all this guff!! Jan on post: 15 / 21 / 41 and Keith on post 26 / 70 / 76 !!
It really doesnt matter who's or what Head you buy!! It does matter that you should buy to application. Buying a BVH for a 15% CAI and Cat-back STREET CAR isnt going to lead to where some say it will. That is all I can say on this point.

It is fun to see a few people get wound up.. for no reason when THEY Have to know they are stretching the facts a bit.. There are more and more companies out there building different spec heads for the MINI community. This is great!! Just buy to application, and be a bit happier with your purchase.

Thumper

 

However true low end performance can be minimized with excessive header & exhaust tubing size, or poor porting; loss of low and mid-range performance is not the valve's size fault in the MINI head. A well executed large valve head is just as beneficial on the street as at the track. I dropped a clue earlier, look at the dyno graphs on page two, even Thumper's head is making great low and mid-range torque, regardless of whether or not those dynos had optimistic calibrations. I have a larger than stock valve size head with a performance cam, and only a JCW pulley; the tune aside, it makes 150 lb-ft of torque at 2800 rpm, and 168 by 3600 rpm, that's before the bypass valve closes. My car has 114000 mile on it so it's not like a spanking new Wednesday build or fresh head installation. Let go of antiquated notions; let no one tell you a street driven MINI is not worthy of larger valves, or the stock valve size is a superior performer in any First Gen MINI application.

 

The "prince engine" Hmmmm... I'm gonna hold out till the "gester engine" hits the production line.....

I don't think Thumper was addressing your post......
I have a small valve head & bought another 1 for a close friend, both Cosworth ( IMHO these were better that the BVH Cosworth ). Over the years they have improved to the point where I belive all that can be done IS lots of tweaks. There is a lot of merit in a small valve head - would I do it again?? Don't know... I do know for the time & cost, over the years & what is available today..probably not. However, this is a very quick Mini, trust me... it's quick.

 

I know a secret . Jan stopped by my work yesterday to show off his new...

LB

 

Engine badges that he has been thinking about for the last 3 years
they will be available on the website soon

 

I'm still trying to figure out what is more UNPROFESSIONAL

arguing with someone who doesn't understand the differences of N/A principles vs forced inducted OR someone pushing their products WITHOUT being a paying vendor

just me

 

Ya ya thats it .

LB

 

Ah, Hah........ Not the "gester engine" I suspect......or new .........

 

Did we determine who's D is bigger yet??? (sorry - I know it's not on topic, but had to be said!)

 

I think the conclusion is, that Jan has the bigger PORTS.

I'm not a vendor, and have no products to push, Im just a regular car guy that got cought in the middle.

 

NUTS, I didn't win AGAIN..... The prize wan a beautiful carbon fiber pez dispenser complete with strawberry pez....

And the story continues... Problem is there's no wrong answer....I have what Thumper is talking about, without regret. The RMW head has way more potential to go much farther than what I have...... there's a BUT though....Unless something comes along that is a - must have, I'm pretty much done with this car ( my 62 year old wife drives this car, has no fear & drives pretty well ).

 

Wow, this thread is way off track (pun, get it?) lol . It's about me!

lol just kidding everyone love all the opinions

 

Awesome .

LB