I've been a member on honda, volvo, ford focus, LS (chevy), and saab forums and have never been so irritated with the lack of information available about products available beyond run of the mill bolt-ons. On the other forums, dyno graphs of new systems and products were what people got excited about. Not hush hush discussion about some black-op build that 3 people know about and are sworn to silence. I just dont see how the biggest tuners refuse to discuss and revel in their wares. Maybe its just the demographic of the mini tuning community or the lack of much competition but I feel everyone would be better off discussing all options and how each companies best products will help enthusiasts most. Isn't that how a free market works?

Sorry for the rant but I have run dry with patience for all the threads with "top secret" information that cannot be told. Call AMS (major import tuner, and very good marketing) and ask them about their winning time attack car(s)! They will not only tell you almost everything about it, they sell almost all the parts on their website with pictures and descriptions!!!

Feel free to comment, I fight (literally) for first amendment rights

 

Good luck on getting an answer you are happy with. I've been wondering the same thing for years..
Some will say, I have lots of money tied up in R&D and don't want to just give it away..
Others have *&^% products but push them anyway as you have no way of knowing. ( until a friend buys it and tells you )

Some will tell you all about their stuff, but then someone will come in right behind them and bad mouth everything they just told you, so some keep quit on here for that reason..
Best to talk to them and people that have their products to see what they say about them..

So I wait, watch, and read all I can to make my best guess...
The truth is out there just got to find it..

 

Many folks say as long as they don't publish...they can't be proven wrong....with mini's performance gains vary quite a bit from car to car...the motors are not built to nearly as tight standards as the Asian stuff...especially the pre 04's....some are very strong, some weak...later cars are more predictable....and I'm sure if you tell a buyer something is good for 10 hp...and they only get 5, in this day and age, you will get a person with a laywer writing a letter....
Some of it is just gorilla marketing tatics...might not be effective...but until recently, mini used the same type of marketing campains to make buzz on limited budgets....so the vendors might just be copying what mini has done themselves in the past.

 

Top Secret Black Op ? Do a search of the forums and you should find what you are looking for. Didnt Longboard have a thead on his MINI some where ?

Guy in my local club was on the phone with one major tuner for about an hour recently discussing the potential pro's/con's of just a tune for his R52. The guy is not the "techno type" and is about my age. He also does not paruse forums a lot. But the Tuner was very appreciative of his call and was very helpful.

Some stuff could still also be under R&D ( Research and Development ) and some other could be currrently used in professional auto racing as well.

Maybe it's just a matter of techno kids these days wanting all their answers answered electronically at the touch of a key ? So, what's so bad about picking up a telephone and just calling the available tuners out there ? They should point you in the direction you seek.

 

From what I've seen in my other car forum, what can often happen is that Company X comes out with a product, they tout it, show it off, post all kinds of info on it.

Then along comes some a-hole. He uses all the above info and reverse engineers Company X's product and puts his own version on ebay for 1/2 the price.

This totally undercuts Company X's R&D costs and leaves them swinging in the wind. So Company X no longer posts all that info about their stuff.

 

It's the princess complex.

 

I think it is because the MINI performance market is so small and limited. If a MINI vendor loses some customers to a competitor, it's a significant part of his business. In a larger market, there are more customers out there and openness helps to reach them.

I saw this posted by a former MINI owner:

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. To give you an idea of how much smaller the market is, Mini sells less per year in the USA than the Honda Civic sells per month in the USA!

 

I understand that fear, but from what I've experienced in the MINI world for the few years I've owned my car, is that there are more than enough customers around here that are willing to pay for the more expensive product because of a multitude of reasons.

• Snob appeal
• "You get what you pay for"
• the people who want to give their support to good, reputable, manufacturers
• the people who need to have a badge/brand and a customer support line behind their product

It's all fine and dandy, whatever makes people happy. Heck, I'm one of the cheap bastards. I bought my reduction pulley from an ebay guy in Slovenia who nobody had ever heard of before, just to be different and spend half as much. But I too have come over from the world of Saab drivers, a ton of whom are people who drive old or beat up cars, are willing to make them go fast usually for the least amount of money possible, and will do anything short of duct tape and bubble gum (and some do use duct tape) to do so. In my experience, MINI drivers are a somewhat monied group with a burning sensation in their pockets. The MINI is a boutique car, and the owners like to buy boutique products.

 

100% agreed.

Coming from Honda / Nissan tuning I can say MINIs are disappointing when it comes to the aftermarket.

There seems to be alot of 'theory racers' here and very very small amounts of real dyno tests for products.

I believe MINI owners are too trusting, they bank highly on what the few 'pros' have to say, where as other communities take matters into their own hands and find out for themselves and the community.

 

QFT, very few people here seem to go out and do there own research. As a result when somebody makes a claim that is obviously BS very few people are able to catch it.

Jeez I dont know, if what is said about the info being out there. If it is then it isnt easy to find. I seem to recall somebody asking about aquamist and all I kept hearing was "yeah, it's awesome, call xxx if you want one". There is too much of that for the community to sustain itself.

 

I would have to agree with r63warrio, I too found much better performance info with other car groups (I too was on the LS and Honda forums). I have been the recipient of a lot of good advice on this forum, but no where near what I would get with my LS.

Despite all that, this is still a good group... most of them

 

I think that the 'top secret parts development' phenomena are an attempt at creative marketing: if you can start a buzz before the product is released, the pent-up demand will translate into sales. From a vendor's standpoint, it is a double edged sword: you can keep quiet about development projects, or if you announce that you are working on a project, people will inevitably clamor for a release date, price, and performance information. If the dates, prices or performance gains do not match your predictions, the vendor catches hell.

If a vendor does not substantiate their performance claims with test results, then Caveat Emptor. That having been said, it's not always quite that easy. We were the first company to install a pulley on and dyno a R53. It was pretty straight forward to test and publish the results. The rest is history. We also offer an intake, but because of the nature of our dyno cell, it's nearly impossible to reliably test an intake. To properly test a 'cold' air intake, you need a dyno with a wind tunnel, otherwise you are not replicating real-world conditions, and your results are not real. Nonetheless, we market an intake because there is a demand for them. We don't make specific HP gain claims for it, but we can guess that there is some cumulative benefit. I don't think this type of marketing is totally unreasonable. Obviously, there has to be a balance, if a company introduces a completely untested part, based purely on the conjecture that 'it should work', then they deserve a little grief.

We have done more than 700 dyno runs on all manner of MINIs, and I have seen plenty of 'performance' parts that, for one reason or another, hurt performance. Yes, I have a mental list, and no, I won't tell. That'll be my little top secret skunk works treasure.

 

Anyone will tell you I'll be the first to tell you what will and will not work, even if it hurts your feelings. But it will be the Truth. I do think some of the vendors try to be secret to build excitment. But there is the other side of the coin I see ALOT, the COOL-aid factor. When a person or a couple get some new product and bragg all over how great and how big the gains are. As a vendor trying to find that middle ground is hard, cause both those equal sales and that's what keeps our doors open. And like Helix said there are alot of parts that don't do anything, or even hurt performance. But there are so many people that have spent money on them and "felt" a difference that will tell us our testing is wrong and we just don't know. So that is a big reason you won't see some vendors trying to make claims or post info about products. Not trying to be secretive, just don't have time to argue with people.

 

I understand how product developers *think* that withholding info builds excitement but thats not the direction the tuning industry is going, and with good reason: the internet. I also understand that many people who produce these kinds of products didn't major in marketing, let alone as fairly recently as I have. Its an ever changing beast.
Newer consumers like myself are irritated when a product is not well described (more is better), shows no or junk tiny pictures (1 is not enough unless its a spring), can't be ordered with ease, no video for exhausts, and there is no empirical data to support the idea of purchasing it.

I do understand that not every mini shows the same gains (like tons of cars) and not every dyno is the same but other tuning circles show dyno sheets, dyno vids, specs, build pics etc. When vendor *** refuses to respond to "how much boost are you running"....give me a break. Makes me not even want to buy products from them even if they make a great product.

Dont even get me started on some of the childish antics of "The best MINI tuners"

 

MINI Owners are known for being extremely loyal. For a lot of people this has been the result of amazing service and quality products. But a slim minority this loyalty became fault, and they'd ignore common decency and type until their keyboard broke, not just to support those they've had good experience with, but also to attack those they had no experience with at all, just for the sake of being right and reaffirming that they had the best products in their car. This dissuaded a lot of people from wanting to post all the details on the forums for discussion, because they didn't want the fight. It's largely why the Vendor Talk area is as it is, so that measures are in place to limit those arguments about the claim on the dyno sheet.

But even before that, there was issues where the community was small enough that many people would sit and read most to all of the technical threads, and educate themselves and make their own decisions about what was right what worked what didn't; even if they hadn't tested it themselves. There were so many self affirmed experts, that if you didn't have a thick skin as an average user it was tough; that much more so for vendors. Take a look at the first 5 or so MINIs that had claimed over 500hp.

Smaller community from volume of cars sold, means the car to car variances are more pronounced. With so many options from the factory, it's been said that make just one aftermarket mod to your car and there's decent odds it's truly one of a kind. Which makes those all encompassing answers harder to come by. And that smaller community means smaller shops as well, MINI doesn't have a factory raicng team that's making it's results public every event and not just place finishes but suspension and engine details, every parameter of the car. Many vendors on NAM at some point if they aren't still, started working out of their garage, or back of their car, and taken on a few to several employees, some are still one man operations, that's fewer people to devote to website work, fewer people to do marketing, fewer people to do R&D fewer people to do installs, shipping, etc. it can ad up to a lot of man hours, and that means that sometimes priorities need to be set.

I've found that if you're genuinely interested, most vendors are willing to sit down talk to you and teach you what you need to know about tuning your car, and share some of what they've learned along the way. I've never really had issues with any shortage of customer reviews on NAM either, and the products that work do tend to develop reputations, as do the vendors that are good businessmen, before and after the sale.

 

I find the lack of information and vendor support kind of off as well.

I have a newer GTO. There are many more Mini's than GTO's running around.
While the motor is shared among many platforms, it still takes different parts to get the upgrades done.

Magnacharger. Vortech, ATI. STS all make plug and play superchargers for us. Stoptech, Wilwood, Baer, Brembo all make BBK's. I can go on but you get the point.

Information is easy to find and compare results. I have a hard time finding basic information here. Way Motors has always helped me out though, but I still find a lack of vendor support.

This site did help me get in touch with Carbotech though. I forgot about them over the years.



Maybe it's different the turbo versions, but I still want a TVS upgrade.

 

Why is the MINI performance world so secretive?

Its a secret.

Really its because like everything else, if you put something out everyone trys to Steal / Copy it and call it there own. Vendors often fight this out in fourms which makes for good entertaining reading.

Examples would be: Headers, Heads, Cams, Intercoolers, Tuning Software or programmers code etc.

Or if you present an idea everyone flames you to hell while they steal your idea / design. Its 2010 and a C.Y.A. world.

 

i'm not at liberty to discuss it . you don't have need to know . the mongoose is at the nest . repeat; the mongoose is at the nest . out .

 

How does one "steal an idea" when it comes to something like headers. Unless you do the calculations to come up with proper tube lengths and diameters you cant really copy anything...

 

I've wondered the same type of thing. Why not just put the spec out there, all anyone has to do is order one and "mic" it and have it duplicated if they so desire..

 

Coming from a Chevy and Transport truck background only 10 short months ago, The MINI world has been a real Quick learning curve. The Mini Performance Stuff or Info. right now you are all so right. I believe is for the most part limited because there are so few of us to generate the revenue that the top people need to do the R&D. And in the world were a competitive edge counts for it all, You don't give out the Recipe or everyone would be doing it.

 

Call me crazy but why would a tuner/vendor give out details of a new product before it's ready for market? Give your competitors a heads up so they can prepare for it, or begin making the same thing themselves??

It's just smart business to develop your products and fully test them before bringing them to market. I've seen way to many products, in a rush brought out on the boards and discussed before they were proven and ready.

2cents

 

I agree, not telling everyone what your making before you make it...
Never know may not pan out or could be the next big thing!!!!

 

I'm a vendor on Subaru Impreza and Mitsubishi EVO messageboards and each has their own unique crowd. We only do suspension stuff for those cars, but I still have a small feel for the power side of things.

The Subaru crowd for the most part is much more inclined to ask for evidence and thorough explanations on WHY and HOW something works, not just dyno charts are marketing speak. They often challenge vendors, but vendors that know what they are talking about and make good products do very well. There are a lot more vendors that are very active and if they know what they are doing then they don't need to worry about internet tough guys or IEs (internet engineers).

On the Subaru messageboard if you introduce a spring that lowers the car 1.5 inches and don't release the actual spring rates, you will get BLASTED. People will laugh at you and people will go out of their way to mention in threads that those springs are crap. And IMO, rightly so...those springs will suck and are completely unproven without releasing spring rates. And that's on a Subaru with okay travel and monster truck wheel gap, not the super travel challenged MINI that looks great stock IMO.

However, if you come out with a spring that lowers an inch or less, mention the spring rates, show how much bump travel you have remaining, maybe even show a shock dyno of the stock dampers, you will do very well and prove yourself to a lot of knowledgeable forum members.

MINI drivers either don't care or just need to educate themselves. Don't blindly believe vendors, especially about suspension stuff. There are only 1 set of springs that I know of where the vendor released the spring rates. Same idea with coilovers. What features end up being advertised the most for MINIs? Price, colors, number of clicks (meaningless), camber plates, and dual height adjustablity (too often seen as only a positive thing). The most important things are the actual valving of the damper and the amount of bump travel....neither of which I've EVER seen someone ask for details on.

Am I saying that people need to challenge vendors here more often? Maybe. But not if you don't know what you're talking about yourself. This is crucial. Ask questions and educate yourself. If the vendor can explain something without sounding like a moron, then that's a good sign. Vendors that can promote their product without bashing another's....major bonus points for them.

And if you do know a thing or two, don't be an *** about it. Be polite...flame wars are good for no one. Also, most of the established vendors on the Subaru board get along decently well with each other.

But **** if i'm buying a set of springs without knowing the spring rates.

EDIT: As for not posting all the details on a product....that's a tough one. It is a scary thought to have your ideas stolen but IMO there is more to gain from being completely open and honest if you can back up your products. We don't claim that our springs are the absolute best...but we will say they match a certain type of driver better than another spring will and we can provide solid reasoning as to why.

- Andrew