A lot of information gets out when the vendor is trying to sample the marketplace to see if developing the product is even worth it. How are they gonna know if it is worth spending a couple grand to prototype and produce a product without letting some info out?

 

That may apply to some things but if you've got something that will add power, make the Mini handle better or stop better; you can bet people will buy it without sampling the marketplace...

Now when you do bring that product to market it should come with numbers or at least a very good idea of what and how much the improvement is going to be. This if nothing else gives the consumer a place to start if they are not happy with the results... As the old timers used to say "I ain't buying no pig in a poke without first seeing the pig."

 

I noticed the same thing when I was involved with the (relatively small) turbo/shelby dodge world. A WHOLE lot of secretiveness on the individual level. There were at tops 5 tuners.. and two of which were very open about products, the rest were hush hush.

Every other forum or group has been wildly open (as previously stated) about what works and what doesnt.

I hope we see some changes

 

R&D budgets are small. The biggest players out there skip the Mini market cause the return on investment is small. The money is better spent elsewhere. That leaves us garage shop guys to do parts for the Minis, or to "OEM" stuff from the bigger guys who get one customer to do a bit of volume and deal with the masses.

Some don't have the tools to really do comparisons, many don't have the budgets, and with the automotive education level of the Mini marketplace, it's hard to actually communicate real data about real parts. Those that really know car performance aren't really big on the forums because they call and talk to the people making what they want to buy to see if it's a good fit. That leaves even less content on the forums, so the dilution of real info to rumor/opinion to real information is even more challenging that other places.

So we're left with the "flavor of the month" buying patterns and the like. Look at the history of CAIs and how they were bought.

Matt

 

Maybe I'm spoiled by my time in the S2000 community. The transparency there is what sold products. I would venture a guess many more new BMW MINI's were sold than S2000's. I bet there are tons of money spent on tuning MINI's given the decent number of sponsors. S2KI has roughly the same number of sponsors but much much more action/posts on its site. So I lay the blame/responsibility on the tuners. I don't care about budgets. I have seen privateers release amazing turbo kits for the S2000 and in return sold kits because they OPENLY showed what they made and what it produced. Also in that community they have shown disdain for the lack of availability and information about products. Hytech creates some of the best headers for the S2000 community but they have been labeled unicorn headers because only a few mortals have seen them. Between that, no dyno's, and the price people have stayed clear.

 

Most people are spoiled coming from larger communities which have been around decades longer than MINIS. This community is only what, 8 years old in the USA, not including the original mini of course? I came from the Saab world, and granted Saab has been around a long time, there is hardly anything available at all. Guys are at home tuning their own ecu's with laptops and homemade wiring harnesses. Most of the good parts, at least when I was last involved, had to be imported from Sweden where the serious stuff was.

A lot of my friends are involved in modding older Saabs, 900's and 99's. Some of the original Saab factory performance parts in existence in the USA from the company's rallying heyday of the 70's and 80's can be counted on your fingers, so when someone get's something, it's usually horded like in a museum.

 

I can't wait to see the new toys on the RMW website!

 

I share your view of the motoring world. Considering we have such a great platform to work with you'd think tuning info would be easier to gather!

I'm working on my project MINI and when Im done it'll be published online with sources and the like. It'll be unique since it simply hasnt been done, which is sad in itself =/

Anyways Im subbd to this thread.

 

Whether you're a big player or a small shop R&D is not cheap.

When you bring a product to market, you're trying to:
1) Thoroughly test develop & refine your product so that it provides true performance advantages,
2) Figure out how to mass produce a quality product and recoup your R&D costs while not gouging your customers on cost,
3) Release info on the benefits of your product (based on your R&D) that makes sense to potential customers,
4) Form relationships with your customers so that they know that you have their back and will support your product well after they've made a purchase from you.
5) Protect your ideas so that your hard work is no knocked-off by others.

Many of the large tuners that I've seen mentioned in this thread have deeper pocketbooks (not infinite, but deeper than most small shops), larger staffs, and can afford to just lay everything out on the table in terms of how their product is made due to two major factors -- advertising budget & staff and the ability to afford US & International Patents. (Though patents are rare because particular body style or model is only 4-to-5 years). If you have the firepower to really hit your customers with advertising to dominate the marketplace and/or protect your products with patents, it makes complete sense to just tell it all. You have much less to lose than a smaller shop because press or law is protecting you.

As a smaller shop, it makes good sense to protect the aspects of excellent products that required extensive R&D and could be knocked-off. First, you don't have the advertising budgets and resources of the bigger players to lock-in your market presence. Secondly, you'll probably never be able to amortize the cost of patent protection into your products and come out at the best possible price point for your customers. As a customer, some digging a bit more through threads or making a call to these smaller vendors will be necessary to get some of the nitty-gritty questions answered. -- I've found that it's much less frustrating to just call someone if you can't find what you need within the first 10 forum search results under your chosen topic. Also, it occasionally takes so much heavy picking through threads to determine the information of real value that it's just easier to hear it from the company itself.

The true strength of NAM is that when folks like or dislike a product, they make it known. There are lots of folks that post their dyno results, mods lists, and opinions on parts. Ask folks that have parts that interest you installed and they'll tell you what they like or dislike. This makes a situation where it is in the vendor's best interest to stay active on the forums and comment on their products as folks have questions or concerns. Though all communities have their problems, we have a great MINI and Mini community here. As a vendor, I'm sorry that some folks are frustrated when trying to find info, but I know that this frustration can be easily eliminated by just typing an email or picking up a phone. It's passion that keeps most MINI vendors in the game anyway, not the hope of getting rich doing this stuff.

-Clint

 

Well said Clint, well said. Here is a novel idea guys... pick up the phone and call the vendors. I do not do it much myself but when I have talked to the vendors on the phone, the conversations were great. Examples are Clint from DoS, Sushil from BSH, Jan from RMW, Eric and Ralph at Helix and Kellen at Craven Speed. From experience these guys are much more likey to tell you what they are doing with their products over the phone than posting on NAM or via email.

Its too easy these days to post on the forum or send a PM or email. Pick up the phone guys. Do not post questions about shipping product or whether a company is open on a Saturday on the forums or that you are having a problem with a vendors product (call first then post if it gets you no where.) Do it old school and pick up the phone. These guys want to talk to you too.

 

Well done Clint

 

Ma I missing something though? It's the year 2010, you shouldnt have to pick up the phone to find something trivial like a price or a power estimation.

 

Yes. That's true. No one here has refuted that. If a vendor won't post that, you should most definitely question 'why?'.

However, as I said, if it's a nitty gritty (or highly specific) question, any of the vendors out there would love to talk or email with you. We want to build relationships with our customers, get their questions answered, and set concerns at ease.

 

comming from a BMW forum (e46fanantics) this forum was quite a change for me. i thought that this would be better due to the fact that more products are available, etc. however to my surprise, this forum is very uninformative. Im also a vendor on e46fanatics and we run specials all the time, help people out, etc. not saying vendors on here dont do that, but i feel like vendors push their products weather they are bad or not.
At the same time, members are also secretive. i feel that help is only given when asked and reviews of products arent always given. On the other forum, there is a showroom where members can post pics of their cars and talk about there modifications.i dont see anything like that on here, and its because of this that not a lot of information is given.
Also, on e46fanantics, here in SoCal, we have weekly meets where we get together and hang out. Ive posted multiple threads inviting the MINI community out to join since after all, we are all technically BMW's. Ive only had about 2 people show up, 1 in which was a friend of a friend and wasnt even a member on this forum. In my opinion, the MINI cooper community needs to come together more besides the bigger shows like AMVIV, Dragons, and Bimmerfest. Just my 2 cents.
-Andrew

 

However you're forgetting all the local enclaves of MINI clubs and friend circles that get together all the time. A lot of those clubs are based around smaller subforums on NAM or standing alone themselves. Case in point, I am a frequent contributor on nemini.org, one of the northeastern-centric groups. There are frequent tiny meetups whenever someone is feeling in the mood.

 

me either.........here is one of them though

 

If there wasn't enough.....

More from RMW is always more BETTER

 

Agreed. This may be true in your area, however here in L.A, where i see Modified Mini's all the time, i dont see them at meets and greets. im not sure why. i know there are a few little groups that may get together from time to time, but why not invite the forum members out as well? Why keep it limited to the people already in it. Events in my area like Pure Euro, Supercar Sunday, M-Fest, Bimmerfest, and numerous canyon meets in Malibu, are constantly happening, and yet most of these Modified Mini's never show. Ive posted threads inviting people out. It gets 200 clicks but 0 show up.

Ontop of this, most modifications have to be well researched before purchase on almost every product. Like i said before, opinions and answers are only given when asked. No one posts a "Just got H-Sport Springs, here is Pictures and an Overview so far". Instead, i have to create a thread asking about the springs, and then i get some overview. Sure there are some threads on it, but most contain dead links and old info. Dont get me wrong, i wouldnt have been able to mod my Mini if it wasnt for this forum, and i constantly turn to it for whatever info i can get, but it shouldnt have to be so much digging to do so.
-Andrew

 

Its to bad your never really see that piece of Artwork,

 

Old threads are frustrating on any forum when you're looking for info. However, I saw your thread where you were asking about H-Sport springs. Looks like some NAM members and WMW gave you some fairly prompt feedback concerning most of your questions. Things aren't perfect here, but for the most part, MINI folks want to help other MINI folks out.

BTW: I have a new-in-box, unopened set of H-Sport springs with bumpstops in the NAM marketplace if you want them.

 

Exactly! I don't want to call someone up to discuss trivial things they should post on a website or here. I just want basic info available. If I was local then sure it would be cool to stop by, bs, and hang out.

On another note:
Is it just me or if your product can be copied so easily, then you aren't making something special. I don't know how the tuners here are engineering but looking at pictures and youtube videos usually doesn't supply a blue print to build from.

 

True, i got great information in that thread. my point there being that i searched and couldnt find answers, but had to post to get answers. either wy i got the information i needed.
And like i said, im a vendor on the other site and have access to parts. thanks for the offer though man! highly appreciated.
-Andrew

 

I appreciate that you took a pretty fair and balanced approach in pointing out some of the pros & cons of NAM. Hopefully some of the decision makers at IB can glean some info from the opinions noted in threads like this to help improve the site.

 

this statement couldn't be farther from the truth. In this day and age of computers and rapid prototype machines things are copied literally overnight. Just because you can copy something that has taken months of developments doesn't mean it takes an engineering degree to copy it

 

Once Edison made the light bulb viable, it took but a small percentage of the original thought to copy it as so many have...