BTW, the walmart thing, at least with me is not a matter of foreign dependence! Get as much from china as you want! Getting things from china does keep cost down here, keeping the cost of living a bit more bearable. The thing with walmart is that they lock small businesses into contracts by offering the business massive amounts of growth. They then make up 50% or more of a companies total business. Then when the contract runs up, Walmart gives them a choice between lowering their prices a rediculous amount or discontinuing their business with walmart. The problem is that they don't really have the choice of not doing business with walmart because they make up more than 50% of the company's business. They would have to lay off a lot of workers and lose a lot of money. So instead, they lose profit and produce lower quality merchandise to continue production at the lower cost. For me, it's a moral issue. And don't get me started on Salmon from Chile... There are other places that have better business practices and low cost merchandise. BTW, i'm not trying to convert anyone to hating walmart, it's just my personal preference.

Sorry to go off topic...I totally agree that we have to compete in a global market. And that means we have to buy from and sell stuff overseas.

Back on topic...
Using ethanol is not really going to save you money yet. Once it is regularly produced from cellulose, it will be much cheaper than gas. The reasons for using it now are for performance (using 100% ethanol on a properly tuned engine, ie. le mans, dragsters, Indy cars, etc.) or to reduce your emissions and "carbon footprint". It also cleans your fuel injectors everytime you drive. If I had the $$ to do the conversion and tune, and there was an ethanol station within 20 miles of me, I would do it. I would also do a dyno before and after out of my own curiosity.

 

To answer the original question...try calling Jan at RMW. He does custom tunes. I think all that is involved is increasing the fuel consumption, but it probably would not like to run on gas after that.

 

AliceCooperWA,

All good points you make.

 

E85 has a lot of potential for tuning but it's just not a plug & play operation. The process needs to be approached holistically. All aspects of the fuel system must be changed or you will be running dirtier, less efficient and in violation of US Federal law.

Here are some parts from the FAQ on e85fuel.com that a lot of people seem to be missing or ignoring. Pay attention to the fact that there is only 1 legal kit manufacturer, and that running e85 without that kit is against federal law.

This is a common question asked of the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer. In the strictest sense, yes, a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only could be converted to operate on E85. Realistically, the conversion is extremely difficult. Below explains the reasoning. Be aware that Flex Fuel U.S. has obtained the only U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approval for an E85 conversion kit. The Flex-Box Smart Kit™ is approved for the most popular Dodge vehicles: the Dodge Charger, Dodge Magnum, Chrysler 300 2wd and AWD 5.7L Hemi.
During the 1980’s and early 1990’s, many small companies were formed that were altering gasoline-powered vehicles to operate on other forms of fuels such as propane, compressed natural gas, 85 percent ethanol and 85 percent methanol. The marketing program of these conversion companies was based on the premise that it was cheaper to operate a vehicle on alternative fuels. However, the vehicles being converted were engineered, designed and built to operate on unleaded only. Shortly after the emergence of the “conversion firms” the EPA determined that when converted from gasoline to another form of fuel, the exhaust emissions from these converted vehicles were often much “dirtier” than prior to conversion. See explanation regarding EPA Memo 1A. The use of alternative fuels in the transportation sector has been built around the objectives of using cleaner, non-gasoline based components.
Based on the federal authority provided to the EPA through the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, the EPA implemented regulations that required the exhaust emissions from vehicles converted to run on alternative fuels be “as clean as the exhaust emissions of the original gasoline equipment.” That is, if Ford Motor Company manufactured a vehicle to meet federal emissions standards on gasoline, a company converting that vehicle to operate on propane, must be able to certify that the emissions from the converted vehicle was as good as the original. A process to certify such after-market equipment was initiated and ultimately, few if any conversion kits were able to qualify.

Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel that does not use the FlexFuel U.S. kit is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties.
The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex.

 

All aspects of the fuel system must be changed federal law please move on...you are making me laugh to hard. This is a website where car enthusiast modify their cars on a daily basis. We are ALL for the most part in violation of fedral law.

 

Really? Huh. Aside from the catless crew, who are you referring to?

 

Hopefully, the legality of doing this will change soon. That is ridiculous. Although I do agree that emission standards should be upheld no matter what fuel is being used, giving someone jail time for doing a conversion themselves is just stupid.

I don't think you have to replace that many parts when using e85. The flex fuel kits only include a box that connects to the fuel injectors. The ECU communicates to the flexfuel module, and the module controls the fuel injectors. They claim that it will work on the mini without replacing any other parts. Newer cars are already built to handle ethanol. They just need more fuel than with gas.

 

RussellCorey,

I have been driving ethanol converted vehicles for many years now, and I haven't been jailed yet. The FEDS (ATF) even gave me a permit to make my own ethanol - sounds like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Feel free to report me, though.

For the corn-lovers out there, don't worry I didn't use corn. I used sugar-beets. They are about the size of a coconut, and about as hard as one. I could be wrong, but I don't think the world's sugar supply is in danger.

Here is a link to the permit if you want to make your own:
http://www.fueldistillation.com/alcoholpermit.pdf
Just check the box "SMALL - 10,000 gallons or less" and they will approve it and zip it right back to you.

Nobody is going to enforce the statutes you quote - can you imagine some judge convicting an individual because he is cleaning up the air? Florida is a good example, in the 1970's fuel crisis, Florida passed a law prohibiting the use of other fuels (for the reasons you cited). Now they have reversed those laws and are building two huge ethanol plants within 100 miles from me.

AliceCooperWA is right, all that is required in the legal kit is the box connecting to the injectors, and you will immediately run cleaner than with gas. Carburated cars were more difficult to tune. Today's fuel injection and all the car's emission sensors makes the whole conversion easy. And easy for the computer to keep the air/fuel mixture correct. Once converted, you can put e85 or gas in your tank in any mixture, and the computers will continually readjust the air/fuel mixture. The car will run cooler, and if you have a turbo, the higher octane means the turbo runs better.

 

Good point RS, ... I thought I did. You stick a box onto the injectors and you're done. Good to go with ethanol. If you want to also upgrade your fuel lines, that's up to you. If you believe the ethanol will damage them then upgrade them, a lot of folks won't bother.

 

My Father in law has one of those ATF permits to brew his own ethanol also. Along with his permit is a piece of paper that says, in effect, that the permit does not allow the use of home brewed ethanol in road going vehicles or the sale of the distilled product for consumption.

The ATF (Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) administration can regulate and tax the manufacture of ethanol for consumption, experimental, and for off road purposes. The second it goes into a road going car, the feds, state and local authorities are going to want to tax it. Just like they tax home brew bio-diesel people.

Those taxes are part of what pays for our infrastructure upkeep.

(deep sarcasm here)So not only are you running a dirtier fuel, you are a tax dodger too??(deep sarcasm here)

Don't worry! I'm not going to report anyone!


I certainly don't want to pass judgment on anyone.
For me this is an exercise in moral questions.

Is it more moral to brew your own fuel and use it despite higher levels of personal pollution, or more moral to keep using big oil with it's massive corporate pollution.

Personally I'd love to see ethanol more readily available and proper conversion kits commonplace. Something that lets me tune for more power and keeps my tailpipe clean.

Especially if it's algae or switch grass based ethanol!

To answer the OP's question.

Yes it's possible to convert, but you are opening a Pandora's box. Hopefully that will change soon.

 

Actually, RC, my cars run MUCH cleaner on e85 than your dirty old gas polluter, so I am cleaning up the air. If you just dump ethanol into a car with no re-tuning it will run dirtier, as you suggest. But if you convert your car, it runs cleaner.

And yes, my accountant did calculate my road use and I paid taxes on it, when I made my own, so your apology is accepted. I also took all the tax credits the IRS gives, to encourage the production of ethanol. I guess the IRS never told the FEP (Federal Ethanol Police) I was driving on-road. Today, I buy e85 at the pump for on-road use. There are about 1400 stations across the US selling it now and it is growing rapidly. Anybody that buys e85 at the pump pays taxes just like on gas.

No, RC, I don't drink my ethanol or serve it to my guests. I tried, but they prefer the good stuff. And I don't bottle it or distribute it to Harry, down at the Corner Liquor Store.

Perhaps you should write a nasty note to these folks http://www.efuel100.com/ or maybe you should read their FAQ, Americans have been making ethanol fuel at home for a hundred years, and using it on-road and off road. No one has gone to jail yet. I guess your father in law never ran his ethanol vehicle on-road?

There are thousands of e85 cars on the roads today helping clean up the air, why don't you learn the facts and help also, instead of being part of the problem? If America continues to import 80 percent of their oil, I will guarantee you that five years from now it will be $300 a barrel. And the best short-term solution to get away from foreign oil, running todays autos (with a $300 15-minute mod), is e85 ethanol.
While you are debating the morality of me using ethanol, debate the morality of you buying gas from foreign countries that fund terrorism.
(re: the you ... fund ... terrorism ... that's the deep sarcasm part, RC, ... back at ya)

For me, running on ethanol is yesterday's technology. As I said, I am toying with my next conversion being Magnetic Wheel Motors, fueled from my excess home solar energy. And yes, I will use it on-road, without getting FSP (Federal Solar Police) approval. I'll let you know when I take my first on-road drive, so you can complain that I am stealing your sunshine.

No, I don't pay taxes on my solar energy capture today, but I am sure I will have to someday. But don't worry that I am not doing my part to keep up your infrastructure, my guess is I pay more taxes in a year than you'll pay in a lifetime.

Anyway, the OP's question was has anyone done ethanol conversion?
The answer is yes, thousands of people have converted, it IS legal, proper conversion kits are available, it is easy to do, you will help clean up the environment, your higher octane will improve your turbos performance, and you will save money.
Enjoy your conversion SCICK

 

Currently my mini is running on E85, I added larger injectors and custom tune. It is putting out about 210whp on a Mustang dyno overall temp running lower. It only bumped me up about 8whp from the 92 gas. I am having a issue with #2 cylinder leaning out only thing I have left to check is to see if it is fuel rail or intake manifold not even. A/F readings are safe when measured from tailpipeand and water temps levels are not bad from stock guage and aftermarket. If anyone has suggestions, please let me know. I did have this problem with gas as well, I just did not run it as hard to burn valves as have done at the track with E85.

 

Well the OP's question was slightly different, although I think it was answered by some of the legal ramifications of not using the "flex fuel" conversion. The question was whether there were any tuners that could tune ECUs for use with ethanol. I guess the answer is no. I wish there were, but it seems as though it may be illegal to just tune a car for it. I am no lawyer and not familiar with these laws, so I am very curious about the legal ramifications of doing this. If this is illegal, then you would be asking a tuner to put their entire operation at risk. They likely would not do it. A car tuned for ethanol would also have to be tuned specifically for a certain fuel. IOW, it could only use e85 or e100 or whatever combo you tune it for, just like you tune your car for 87, 89, or 91 octane. You would probably not have the flexability of switching to gas if necessary. That is not very practical considering that there are not ethanol stations around every corner yet. If you were determined to tune your car for e85 or e100 and ignore current restrictions, then you would require someone with custom tune capability. Although it could theoretically be done with one of those shark injector kits. You would just need a dyno and the ability to change the file of the shark injector...and I guess some tuning knowledge may keep you from blowing up your engine.

If done properly, there is no moral delima with using ethanol. If done incorrectly, then it may be dirtier (although, I don't see how it could be dirtier when ethanol is just plain cleaner than gas) and it seems you might run very lean without proper tuning. No matter what, fuel leaning out too much means bang...

Remember that if your car is less than 15 years old, your fuel system parts are already designed to use ethanol, because your car is still warrantied for use with 10% ethanol. For 100% ethanol, there may be lubrication issues in the fuel lines. They say that using e85 does not have this problem because the 15% gas lubricates the lines.

 

Who tuned it for you?

 

AliceCooperWA,

Well said, thanks for getting the OP's question back on track.

 

Well, I was interested to hear first hand exp. in a MINI, especially re: E85's octane rating and potential performance increase........ And then ->

I'm also wondering about the tune. I would think the higher octane rating would allow better gains than 8whp..? Know the octane rating of the E85 you use? Should be somewhere around 100-105?

Gas station down the street sells E85, always curious about alt. fuels.

 

I don't understand, why would anyone want to tune their car to ethanol only, instead of applying the flex-fuel conversion kit (a $300 15-minute mod), so it runs flexibly on any mix of ethanol or gas?

 

E85 I believe is rated around 103. As far as gains, IDK. I was always a believer in a higher ocatne fuel will not gain power. Or if it does, it's negligible. Then again, that goes back to carb'd V8's there where a 9:1 small block that normally runs on 92/93 is run on 105+. Now, nitromethane on the other hand....

 

I'd like to hear more about the E85 tuned MINI mentioned earlier. I have personal reasons for wanting to make my own car flex-fuel capable, since E85 isn't widespread capable I'm not ready to make that my sole fuel choice.
I was wanting to go with a system more like Lotus did with the flex-fuel capable Exige though, where two extra injectors before the supercharger work as a combined alcohol injection/added fuel system when E-85 is detected.

 

A shop here in Minneapolis area. They have done the change on some WRX's and had much better results (25-30whp), however they are running much higher boost. With the head and cam we are currently trying I am only running about 12psi. I am rebuilding the bottom end to hopefully handle a little more boost as soon as I can figure out why #2 keeps leaning out. I will have to check on the octane, I did not notice when I filled up. I did forget to add I have the Hydra system on to be able to tune for the change.

 

AliceCooperWA,
can you explain to me- why would these folks want to tune to ethanol, instead of applying a flex-conversion kit (a $300 15-minute mod), so they could run any mix of ethanol or gas? I'm not a track guy, so what am I missing?
Thanks

 

Well, the flex fuel thing has to be altering the fuel maps. It is doing it post ecu, so it may be effecting performance. If you tune the ecu for performance, then the flex fuel module may change the fuel map in an undesirable way. That is just a theory though, as I have been researching, but have not been able to find exactly what the flex fuel module actually does...as in exactly how it calculates the added fuel etc. The problem is that it allows for so many different combinations of fuels, that it may be impossible to get the most out of the engine because things are being changed post ecu. I've been trying to find out more about this thing for a while now...

 

Is there a reason for a standalone ecu? Why could they not just remap the stock ecu?

 

Shop does not have Dimsport or similar system to tune stock ECU. As mentioned before we are working with our own head and cam design along with mutliple other changes which has had the car on the dyno alot to tune or just monitor effects of changes. I would be able to afford RMW tunes for what I have done. I started with UniChip, but it just did not have the control and adjustablity nor the ability to monitor all the items that we have been doing with hydra. Next setup will include a Aimsport dash hooked to hydra with sensors to monitor EGT for each cylinder to try and avoid burning up valves.

 

AliceCooperWA,

Thanks, yes the FF does alter the A/F ratio. I think the result is that performance improves over gas. I have a link somewhere that explains how it works. I'll find it and post it for you.

...... found it. the following was in my ethanol archive, I don't have the link it was from ..... Basically the FF kit continually re-adjusts the A/F ratio, from 6:1 (all ethanol) to 13:1 (all gas), depending on how you fueled. As I remember a stock ECU is programmed to a much narrower range, like 11:1 to 13:1.
_______________________________________

e85/e98 burns much colder and contains much more octane than regular gas so it lets you run more boost + timing.
Usually it will also require you to enrich your fuel map by around 30%. This is because e85/98 contains less heat energy (BTU/lb) than regular gasoline.

Regular Premium Gasoline - 98 RON/ 19,000 BTU lb / 135 BTU lb Latent heat of Evaporation
E98 Ethanol - 108-115 RON/ 12,500 BTU lb / 410 BTU lb Latent heat of Evaporation

That higher level of evaporation cools down the combustion chamber wickedly. (hense why u can run w/o an intercooler) Then you may ask why does it make more power?

Gasoline contains 19,000 BTU of energy. To obtain the best power you need an air to fuel ratio of 12.5-12.7:1

Ethanol contains 12,500 BTU of energy. To obtain the best power you need an air to fuel ratio of 6.5-7.0:1 !!! thats why it consumes more gas... But that is also why it makes more power. Why? because of the amount of gasoline you are burning.

12.6 air to fuel ratio divided by 6.7 air to fuel ratio is = 1.88

1.88 X 12,500 BTU lb = 23,500 BTU lb de Ethanol (vs 19,000 BTU of regular gasoline)

That is why ethanol contains 23.68% more delivered BTU OF ENERGY than regular gasoline