Thought some of this information might be of interest to you R56 folks. I don't have an R56 myself, but I had a chance to hook up a scangauge to a buddy's car yesterday and took some notes.

Ambient Temps during testing were a solid 67º F, Testing was done at sea-level, or pretty darn close (We were in Marina Del Rey, which is basically on the coast, so it couldn't have been much higher than 50-75 ft). All testing was on a BRAND NEW R56 (The car has less than 1500 miles on it) and is completely stock save for a suspension (Mach V) and a custom K&N Intake (Open Cone Element with a pipe straight to the MAF). My suspicions are that the temps would probably be slightly lower if you stuck the stock airbox back on there with a high flow filter because it's pretty well insulated.

First off, the stock IC is pretty damn efficient! I'm not sure why you guys love swapping out IC's so much (especially if you don't even track the car), but I had a HELL of a time getting the intake temps above 100º F. Even when it did peak, it recovered back down to 7-8 above ambiant in less than 30 seconds of driving at normal street speeds (35-45 mph).

We tried pretty hard to heat soak the IC as well. During a gas stop, the temps peaked at about 96 (we were stopped for about 7-8 minutes with the engine off). Again, immediately after getting the car moving temps settled down to about 6-7 degrees above ambiant. The placement of the IC in this case seems to be the main reason for the lack of heat soak.

On the R53 the IC was on top of the engine. As we all know from our early science classes, heat rises, and the WORST place for an intercooler from a heat soak perspective is on top of your engine. Since there isn't a lot of heat generated in the lower area of the engine bay, it took a lot longer for the heat to migrate to the IC.

Another thing I noticed is that the R56's run a LOT hotter than their R53 counterparts (Water temp). Under normal driving (No boost, moving consistantly at 40+ mph) I couldn't get the water temps under 220º. When we hit the AC, the car almost instantly dropped down to 192 or so. This confirms that like the R53, the R56 will automatically cycle the radiator fan if the AC is turned on.

Why the water temps were so high I have no idea. On my car, cruising at 40 my water temps rarely go above 200 unless it's a warm day (90+). *Edit* After talking to Danny at MINICorsa, I've learned that the Turbo is water cooled (Which I suspected). Hence your water temps are going to be a lot higher than a normal car.

Boost! Well, the little turbo on these cars does struggle to maintain boost at higher RPM's. You can watch it taper off as you keep the car pulling into redline. We saw peaks of around 11.7 PSI, tapering off to around 10.5 at redline. Another interesting point that I was unaware of is that with the DSC turned off, we peaked almost 2 PSI higher (13.4 PSI).

In short, it seems that the R56 could really use a larger turbo for some upper RPM grunt (GT25 Perhaps?). I can't see any reason at this point unless you seriously track your car to swap out the intercooler. At some point in the near future I'm going to try to do some track testing to qualify this data a bit more. I'm curious to see what kind of numbers we see on the track.

Anyway, the testing certainly wasn't scientific, and I have no way to log anything other than with my eyes and a notepad, but I figured some of you guys might find the information interesting.


Feel free to PM me with any questions!

 

Good Info and I think you just talked me out of buying an bigger IC.

 

Aaah, hangon, this was a completely stock car.

 

Interesting information: Question how were the different temps measured?

Did you measure and can you publish the IC temps on both sides of the core?

What and where were the inlet temps measured?

Meaning that a static laser temp measure on the core surface may not give the information needed to make a comparison.

Let us know!

 

Good point!

 

Uh, no please don't tell me this is another IR pyrometer measurement...

I have been resisting but...

 

All readings were taken via Scangauge II (Aka OBDII readings, I mentioned this in my original post). I don't have an IR pyrometer, nor would I consider any data generated from such a tool to be relevant. I'm not sure where the ECU pulls IAT data on the R56, that's a question for an engineer .

Yes, it was on a stock car, but at this point there isn't much out there that makes more power than stock other than intakes and exhausts (Which aren't going to alter IAT's really).

It was more geared towards the folks that I've spoken to that want to slap on a new IC on their stock MINI because it's SOOO inefficient.

The R56's IC is actually quite efficient. The car I did the testing on will be getting an exhaust soon, and when the software is available, a dyno tune. I'll keep this thread alive and keep adding to it as I get additional data.

 

id love me a bigger turbo....

 

Hehe, it was my car!

I was quite suprised as I figured the stock IC was probably not very efficient seeing how tiny it is. But I drove the crap out of the car and it would just not heat soak, and this was with an open K&N filter which was mostly just sucking hot air in I'm sure (I've since taken it off and gone back to stock...for various reasons).

This data was merely read from the OBDII port, so it only reads the IAT at one point, and like Nick said, I'm not sure where that is read from. Interesting none the less!


Ohhh and Nick....it has 2300 miles on it now .

 

Cause you drive the **** out of it.

 

I can see how you can come to this conclusion from the data you are reading. You are using a normally, pretty solid tool. But what i have found is that not all these tools read things quite accurate. And also they are limited by speed and the amount of sensors. For us when we did our testing on the stock IC and our first prototype, we used Innovate data logging products. This is the only way to get accurate data from the engine unless you have a really fancy BMW tool.

With that said the FMIC is not very good at cooling. Besides our temp readings we have posted in the past, and the dyno data to back them up, we see further evidence that the core doesn't get very good ambient airflow. When we pull OEM IC's off of cars we see that only about 1/3 of the core gets dirty, and the rest stays clean. This shows how most of the ambient doesn't reach the whole core. This is why we created the IC diverter. During our testing we found it dropped the outlet temps 6-7 degrees. Not much but it made it more consistent. The outlet temps of the stock core would hit 150 by the end of the run compared to ours IC would hit barely 110. Not to mention this change with only a 1.5psi drop. So FMIC's do work, and even those who have changed them without dynoing them, have noticed a seat of the pants difference.

 

Dyno testing IAT's eh? That could explain your readings. The temperature accuracy isn't the issue, it's the refresh rate of the OBDII system, and IAT's don't fluctuate enough to need something that refreshes uber fast. If after starting the car after 10 minutes of being parked the IAT's are 90 degrees, then they're 90 degrees. 200 ms refresh rate or 30 seconds refresh rate, the temperature is the same.

As for boost, yes, boost logging is difficult through OBDII. If you set all the gauges to the same gauge it speeds things up to about 500 ms refresh rate, which is fast enough for me to see what's going on.

As I said, this isn't scientific testing, but there's no way in hell a car driven on the street is going to see IAT's at 150 degrees unless they put duct tape over the IC.

As for people noticing a difference after installing a $1k IC? Well, it doesn't take much to generate a placebo affect in most people. For some, spending $1000 on something HAS to mean a difference, otherwise it's a waste of money.

For what it's worth I'm still running my stock IC on my R53, which sits on top of a hot engine, and uses a HIGHLY inefficient form of boost, and we STILL make higher HP with it than with any of the other aftermarket Air to Air offerings out there (Everything else heat soaks and takes 4-5 minutes to recover because it's so heavy). The stock IC's recover nearly instantly (Weigh nothing). Even when the IC did get hot (Peaked at 101) it cooled back down to 7 above ambient in about 30 seconds of driving.

Honestly, I'm not sure how you can poke holes in OBDII read IAT's. It's not like IAT's ramp up in 2 seconds and then fall again. It takes time for things to cool off, and you can watch the temperature fall 2-3 degrees at a time after you get off the boost. There are a lot of things that OBDII datalogging isn't very good for, boost, speed, RPM's, temperatures aren't one of them. Things simply don't change that fast.

1.5 PSI pressure drop too? Not sure I'd want to give up 13% of my total boost to lower intake temps by 25-30 degrees.

If the data is good enough for the engine it's good enough for me. How do you think your car knows how hot the air is that it's sucking in?

 

I think that the OEM IC has a pressure drop of about 2,2 psi, so basically you earn 0,7 psi of pressure...

 

Just so we are all on the page here, before we jump to any other conclusions.

ScanGauge reports IAT, intake air temperature. That would not show you anything related to post turbo charge temp, or aftercooler temp. So how are we deciding the effect of the stock cooler?

 

Thanks for the water temp readings. Confirms what I am getting on my Stewart Warner gauges. I was worried that the consistent 220-230 readings were off, but it looks like the gauge is dead on. (The sensor is in the same place as where ALTA taps their sensors into the plastic water tank.)

Did you rag the car out much? If so, did the temp ever get above 230? My gauge only goes to 260 with 190 at dead center (obviously based on the R53 normal temp). I am taking the R56 to the track for the first time next week and am wondering if the gauge is going to be sufficient to monitor higher temp fluctuations at the track.

 

Yea I beat on it pretty hard. It was not for an extended period of time like you would see on a track though. Also, it was in the 60's so it was pretty cool out. I'm sure it's a different story when its 110 here in a month or so .

I don't think we saw it go above 230, Nick can answer that though as he was watching it more than I was. As soon as I clicked on the a/c though, the temps went down to 190's. Forces the fan's to come on. I don't know what water temp triggers the fan to come on in the R56.

 

what made you go back to the stock intake?

 

Unless something has been changed on the r56 iats are going to represent post ic charge temps. It doesn't make any sense to me that Mini would pull iats from before the ic. It doesn't matter how hot the air going in is, all that matters is the air coming out.

If what you're saying is correct what explains the increase in temps as the car got on boost? The car sucks in hotter air at higher rpms?

As far as stock pressure drops, I know nothing about that.

 

Too loud... LOL

 

^^ haha, you should give a trueflow foam filter, or any foam filter a try. Its not as loud as the paper k&n filters and is far superior to paper filter elements.

 

OBD systems collect data very very slow. While the newer CAN cars can offer faster data, there is hardly any tool that utilizes this. We have the Innovate OT1 (CAN OBD tool) and while its fast, its not as fast as the other Innovate logging tools.

With that said, you are incorrect about intake temp changes. These happen very very fast, but the problem is the stock sensors may not pick it up well, or the OBD tool may not. The stock sensors sometimes have plastic coatings on them, which make them react very slow, but keep them from erratic readings. Pull out the sensor and take a look, you will see what i mean. Most temp sensors have something over the Thermocoupler part of the sensor to protect it, and most of the time its metal to conduct heat better. NEVER are high performance sensors coated in plastic.

What? Your right, if just sitting there idling, the Air intake temp reads 90, 30 seconds later, it will still read 90 with no change in engine speed or throttle.

Wrong again (in a nice tone), but this is just not the case. While there are sooooooo many people who try to discredit dyno testing, this is a great tool for this kind of testing. While our fans do blow at a fixed speed, it doesn't matter, its the differences before and after. Meaning say our wind speed of the fans is 50mph and we see X temps, then we can say that at higher wind speeds, they are just going to be a little cooler.

On the dyno if the stock IC gets to 150F, on the street you will potentially see higher temps at lower road speeds and lower temps at higher road speeds. In these situations, there are consistent things, the inlet temp of the intercooler, the ambient temp. Some might say that the IC efficiency is also constant but its not. If you calculate IC efficiency the way most people do, it doesn't take into account the ambient air flow. This factor is what changes the outlet temp at different road speeds. The inlet temp does change with RPM and boost, but its consistent at a given load (load= RPM and boost). Given the IC efficiency is also constant, at a given load, but a different road speed, the outlet temp could vary.

Actually the FMIC is $800, and about street price of $720.(street price is what dealers tend to discount them to)

This might be your issue altogether. What IAT are you reading? You do know there are temp sensors on the car? There is an IAT in the MAF sensor, and there is one in the boost tube after the IC (this is the one that is a TMAP sensor). And 99% of the time the default OBD system read the MAF sensor temp.

Again, yes the temps do change that much, that quick. The turbo outlet temps say start at 100F, and under boost go very quickly to 250, the second you let off, they will drop. I can show logs that show the temps rise up under load, and then cool back down in a couple of seconds. If you are doing full throttle, then going instantly to idle, the change will be very slow because the air flow is hardly anything and the temp sensor will not change. But hold it at a steady 3000RPM of no load, and it will drop very fast.

Then you better take off your stock FMIC! Every intercooler has a pressure loss. Our prototype core pressure drop(at 200WHP and with about 2750 CFM of air flow) was about 2.8psi. This this is ok for an OEM type core, we were shooting for 1psi (which is what we feel is acceptable). AFter the redesign, with different fin counts) we got it to 1.5psi. This is very very good, and we only gained 2 degrees higher outlet temp.

Also 1.5psi is not 13% of your boost as you have to use Absolute pressure and add in that 14.5psi. But i understand why you say its 13%.

This is also another misconception. The ECU knows how much air by the MAF sensor and the temp sensor in the MAF. But the air temp in the boost tube is different. This is most likely used to make adjustments when it gets really hot or really cold. Your comment is like saying the ECU is tuned perfectly and there is no room to get more power. Especially with air temp sensors, the stock ECU doesn't use that like it should. In fact there are lots of cars (subarus in particular) that don't even have a temp sensor in the intake manifold. The only temp sensor they have is in the MAF. It comes down to the programming in the ECU. Not all ECU's change fueling or timing with air temp changes like they should. The just use it for global things, like on hot days were they read way way hotter than normal, or on really cold days. The ECU for these extremes then starts to change timing and fueling. They do this because it works "GOOD ENOUGH" . Only do stand alone's/racing ECU's or custom programing take full advantage and use a fast acting temp sensors, and fully map out the ECU to take advantage of that. So what i am saying is that in a general way, the ECU doesn't "NEED" to have the best temp sensors.

Actually yes its does. The MAF sensor can read airflow, but it needs to read intake temps to accurately do this. Again, the temp reading in the boost tube is most likely there to make changes when it gets really hot, or really cold. A good test is pull your IC off and put a tube across it. I bet your car detonates like crazy. this would show the ECU isn't using the charge tube intake temp sensor to its fullest.

As you compress more air, it gets hotter. More boost, hotter air. Also RPM effects the temps also because the turbo is running in a different part of the compressor map, and its less efficient.


If you look above you can see a compressor map (not the stock mini turbo, but i do have it thanks to Velotech) but look at 5000 RPM, the turbo is 70% efficient. Then as you go lower, or higher it gets worse. A 10% change here is a 30 degree change on the turbo oulet temps. And if i map out the engine airflow on the stock turbos compressor map, it changes at much at 15%!! Yikes! But hey, thats a small turbo for you.


Throw in one more thing, and make sure your temp you are reading matches the temps outside. We see a 10-15 degree difference from ambient on a lot of cars. Meaning your intake temp and real outside temp may not match, which makes your readings even different.

If the stock IC works so well, then why did installing our diverter cool the outlet temps of the stock IC a few degrees, and then installing our own core cooled them more, and then it gained HP on top of that.

I am not arguing with you here, so please don't take it that way, i am just trying to educated some of the onlookers and hopefully you on how the IC works, and why it works.

 

Thank you for all the insights Jeff!

It was all very informative!

Question though, if the temp readings that we were looking at were being read from the MAF, wouldn't they have been much hotter? Seeing as I had that open K&N intake sitting in there. So maybe it didn't suck as much hot air in as I had originally thought?

 

If it was measuring temps at the MAF then the temperatures wouldn't have hit 101 degrees under boost, then slowly cooled down as the car was driven.

As for the rest of what you posted, I'm not going to do a blow by blow. Some of what you posted assumes I know very little about how cars and their various components work (Not true). I'm certainly aware that more boost means more heat (Duh?). The temperature readings were during boost, not like, accelerate to 3k rpm's and let off. We were pulling to redline in 1st through 4th.

If things were going to get hot, they would have. I'm quite aware that there are multiple temperature sensors on the R56, but IAT's from the scangauge aren't pulled from the MAF, they're pulled post IC (Heating and cooling trends of this magnitude wouldn't show up on an MAF sensor)

I'm not going to argue about the relevance of the testing, I didn't post this as a scientific test (And stated so in my original post), I posted it as info for R56 owners who previously only had data from a vendor who is selling a product to look at. It's all great and wonderful that you tested something, and it worked. I'd hope that you're not going to post info about how little your products do.

It's pretty common knowledge that some of the dyno results that you guys get are just off the wall (12 hp from an intake, 20 HP from an exhaust, etc). If the results showed ridiculous temps, I would have posted that. It helps to have a little independent testing out there. Knock it all you want, I believe in the numbers.

 

The issue is simply that in the post you made and continued to assert an opinion based on questionable data.

Therefore in order to help others who may take your info as gospel truth there needs to be a counter point.

And yes the temp is as high if not higher than 100F at the MAF. toss some real thermocouples under the hood, and in the intake stream. The engine compartment gets quite hot, even hotter at standstill. This is why we ceramic coat exhaust parts and turbo components, to suppress heat transfer into the engine bay.

 

I find this thread quite entertaining