WELL put. Simple empirical data is all that is needed.

 

THAT IS IT? I mean seriously. Thank you for proving our point! Now giving you credit for conducting the testing properly, etc. That is a TINY gain for a cat-back.

Re-inspecting this chart, looking at the launch RPm would give you that gain alone. By simply changing the launch point will load the turbo differently and thus the 5 HP gain. MY bet is if you launched the WMW exhaust run at the same RPm as the stock, there would be no gain.

 

Did you not see the dyno results? Those certainly seem like quantifiable data?

 

That doesn't make any sense at all. You are in PDX. Why don't you swing on out sometime and we can go for a cruise.

Seriously.

 

I was talking about that particular post (Considering I quoted that post?). Posting "Get this, nuff said!" in a thread that's supposed to have actual information doesn't help...

 

what are you saying?

catbacks don't give any gains if properly dyno tested?

 

Dyno tuning at it's finest.

"Hey, did you know that we can gain 20 HP on this car without doing anything?"

"Really? How?"

"Its easy, we just launch the car on the dyno differently to make it LOOK like it's making more power"

"Dude, that's awesome, lets do it and sell that service for $500"

"Already did... how do you think I can afford all this nifty stuff!"

 

No the opposite. If they are tested properly, then you SHOULD see gains assuming they are there.

 

I have no idea if you are being flippant or not. BUT, my point is that to show gains, then you must test identically in both cases. So the results above show that the tests can't be compared. There may be more or less HP in both sides of the graph.

Thanks for the post!

 

I think the 5 HP dyno gains are the best one could expect and possibly Cat Backs do not add a single HP. In my previous post I spoke of how I ran stock and with intake and catback and ran the same 60 foot same MPH but my run stock was the fastest by one tenth. The track temp was 5 degrees higher the second time when I ran with Intake and Catback. I have a 6 speed auto so it is very consistent.

I feel from my days at the strip that the intake and Catback sound and look cool but will not add any measurable performance.

Since my last time at the track I sold my Alta intake and bought a DDM Works intake. It looks so clean and sounds great. I don't think it will make any more power except when the weather is cool at speeds of 40MPH and up. I do think the next time I run the car if it is hot it will go slower than stock just like the Alta Product.

 

Good info derosi!

 

So adding a CAI and/or an aftermarket exhaust may or may not add horsepower.

Would these not free up the engine to rev easier and quicker? Would that not then make the car quicker? Serious questions open to any that want to answer.

Personally, the best way I've found to make my car quicker is High Performance Driving Lessons and lots of seat time at the track.

 

I think you make a great summation here of the problems.

Our exhaust (and others) MAKE HP gains over stock. They also improve fuel economy etc.

ALTA and others have presented dyno data to support these claims.

WMW published some results above that question their own testing methods. My point still is that their system makes power over stock, (not as much as ours) and that they need to re-do the dyno testing to get more accurate results.

Intake systems also make power and again have been tested both in house and independently.

PLEASE let me know how I can help you or anyone else in a similar fashion!

Thanks again for choosing ALTA and NAM!

 

Wow, Alta just shot right past Palo Uber as the vendor I have the lowest respect for

Those results are completely consistant with what people should expect out of a well-engineered R56 exhaust. All the runs were performed by the owner of the dyno in an effort to give the most consistant and legitimate numbers. The person performing the runs was not made aware of what was being tested. We had one "after" run that showed slightly higher numbers, but it wasn't a clean run and Way asked that it be left off the comparison.

That's the kind of guy the smart money goes to

From a personal perspective, I have bought three Alta products in the past, and they were all overpriced, overmarketed and underperforming pieces of junk. I couldn't even sell my barely-used (less than 1 week) Alta clunktastic rear camber arms at the used parts table at MOTD for 50 bucks! I tried giving the Alta slice-o-tubing intercooler "boots" away for free, and had no takers! And trust me, you don't want them if you're a fan of boost I gave my Alta silicone intake hose away to someone who needed one in an emergency.

So please forgive me if I'm not immediately blown away with your marketeering dyno numbers, especially after seeing the horrific build quality of your downpipe! The turbo-side transition is so bad that I actually laughed out loud when I first saw it.

But please folks, don't take my word for it. Look (and listen) for yourself before deciding which exhaust is right for you. Ask yourself if it really makes any sense that the BMW engineers would leave an easy 20+ HP on the table simply by choosing the wrong sized exhaust tubing?

And please continue to PM me with any questions you have about the WMW exhaust.

 

 

You can't be serious.

I am NOT saying the dyno is a bad dyno or the operator etc. BUT, you don't do this for a living, we do. And I can tell you that using YOUR dyno graph it CLEARLY shows the ramp RPM being changed from roughly 2250 on the red run, to 1750 ish on the blue run. That makes a HUGE difference in the comparability. My POINT is run it again. Use the SAME launch RPM for both before and after and publish those numbers. I am NOT saying this was done to intentionally mislead the client at all. Just make em match so you have oranges to oranges comparison. Why does that make me a bad person?


This statement has little if anything to do with the exhaust thread. BUT, If your rear control arms clunked, give us a call and we would replace them. No questions asked. We have already mentioned in another forum that we had a batch of bad rod ends. Each reported case was replaced free of charge.

The Intercooler boost (again R53) are a GREAT product. They solve boost leaks not create them. Clients that have issues with installation I understand. They can be a bugger to put on. But if you have boost leaks afterward, then check the OEM clamps. They tend to get stripped out and thus leak. Not had anyone had any leaks with the boots.

On the intake tube. If you want to give things away that is up to you. If you want to talk about these issues, please put them in the ALTA Q&A in the GEN I R53 section. They have ZERO place here.



Again you are obviously a supporter of WMW. Which is fine. There are ALTA camps too. No big deal. But my point here is that you have taken something and made it personal (it seems) and I have no idea why? This is just a comparison thread, not a bash each other thread. An interplay of ideas and facts. Fact is you don't like my company. No problem. But don't belittle the informative value of accurate and repeatable dyno results just because you don't like us.

If you have any other personal issues, PLEASE direct them to me off forum or at least in the R53 section since the beef is with those products.

Thank you again!

 

When someone can figure out how to make 20+ whp from an exhaust and 12+ whp from an intake on an independent dyno (One that ISN'T run by the company that benefits from bloated numbers) then I'll believe it.

 

No, THIS is what you said...

You were horribly condescending and claimed that you didn't believe that the WMW exhaust would make any gains at all! You didn't say anything about "apples to apples" comparisons. It was just a cheap shot that was completely undeserved.

There were dozens of dyno runs done, ALL by the same person, the owner of the dyno shop. Unlike you, he does dyno runs for a living. I'm sorry if the launch points I posted weren't exactly to your liking, but they were indicative of the ACTUAL results we were getting. It was also 20-30 degrees warmer the day the "after" results were run, but the numbers were good enough not to bother waiting for more favorable temperatures.

Nice try at revisionist history. Go back and read the thread from the beginning. I posted about the challenges of turbo exhaust design, and you claimed I was talking NA exhaust theory. I discussed the engineering decisions involved with the WMW exhaust, and you said none of that stuff was important when a turbo is "thrown into the picture". I posted a dyno chart that showed realistic, anticipated gains, and you said the dyno run was wrong and the exhaust likely makes no more power than stock. For not being a "bash each other" thread, you sure have done a whole bunch of bashing. I think I was being more than reasonable, but even I have a breaking point.

Like the gearheads here have said, ain't no trophies for dynos. When you see an R56 win a race or autocross this year, check and see which exhaust it's running

 

I tried to just report my track runs and leave it at that but this is ridiculous.

The Unichip Product with Alta Tune is Unreliable.

The Exhaust Claim of 10 WHP is not realistic

The Alta Intake 12 WHP not a chance

Independent Dyno posted a while ago of the Alta Boost Tubes, Exhaust, and Intake producing 5 HP that sounds like a reality.

I feel like the Alta Catback probably makes the same 5 HP that the Way Catback makes and the intake and boost tubes do nothing.

If the Alta Cat back and Intake added 20 HP my times would have dropped 2 tenths and my trap speed would have increased.

I have owned the Alta Intake (Sold it) and Exhaust and like the sound and look but am beginning to feel insulted by them continually backing up there 20 WHP claims from these items.

Side Note:Does anyone think I should take my new DDM intake off for a BMWCCA track day I am attending. The temps will probably be 95 degrees in the Cali Dessert?

This is just one opinion nothing more but I want my fellow members of this forum to hear from someone who has had these items and feel strongly they do not produce as advertised. This is not the first or the last time a manufacturer over promises on HP gains.

 

I'm not familiar with the DDM intake. From looking at the stock box though it's VERY well insulated. I see no reason why it wouldn't suck in plenty of cold air. If you do run the stock intake though throw in a new filter for flow reasons.

 

Do you have the race intake or the street intake? I have to remove the ram portion for autocross, so I'd be interested in hearing if you notice any temp issues if you have the street version.

 

The DDM looks like its the best designed intake for the R56 so far. Really thats not saying much, but I like how they have it in a box to try and somewhat insulate it.

For what its worth, I had one of the DIY K&N intakes on my car and I just took it off and went back to the stock box. Sure it doesn't sound as cool, but I think the car is quicker and happier with the stock box. Funny though, I only spent $45 on it rather than nearly $300 for the Alta which functions the same darn way. Oh excuse me, those have a nice bracket and a foam filter.

 

When you insult the numbers you are slapping Jeff in the face. It’s ok if you don’t like Adam, but if you would like to question the numbers (more then fair) please ask Jeff your questions. He is the tuner and the one commanding the tests. I don't get to "tinker" with the numbers and neither does Adam. Calling the numbers false or exaggerated is calling Jeff a liar and he works very hard to ensure that the number are 100% accurate and repeatable.

I am guessing this was a typo based on your previous statements. If its not, thanks we try hard to provide acurate information through repeatable results....but i'm guessing thats not what you meant.


Side note.....
Jeff has been extremely busy the last week and not been able reply to as many posts as he would like.
Letting a little cat out of the bag…..Jeff has been redesigning and constructing new turbo systems for the Rockstar Rally Team, easily the number two rally team in the united states and winners of last years X-games.

Over this past weekend Jeff helped Franz Diebold (unbelievable tuner with clients such as the Subaru Rally team, Hancook rally team, and the Subaru road race team.) run the Rockstar rally cars on our dyno, tuning them for their next race starting on Friday.

It's ironic to see people on NAM arguing over the quality of the dyno number Jeff has compiled while he is sitting in the back of our shop with one of the best tuners in the country,...... tuning the cars of one of the foremost racing teams in the country,....... because he (Jeff) just got done fabricating custom turbo systems for the cars. (by himself. no help..... Just his expertise.) They come to us because they know Jeff knows how to build and tune turbo systems.

I’m sorry for sounding bitter but you have to admit there is some irony in this.







For those who care....I took some spy shots of the new set ups. I'll unpixelate them after the race this weekend as we would not want the Subaru Rally Team to see what we built till the race this weekend.

 

alright as soon as jeff gets done with the subs get back to makin stuff that makes my mini faster.

 

I took some photos of the insides of the cat downtube of the two contenders; I'll post them later.
One is vastly smoother than the other...

I've never really cared what my exhaust looked or sounded like, to be honest. I've only cared about how it worked.


Ditto.

Not for the track day, I don't think.

Way put a turbo wrap on my car last night and I'm starting to gather my data for temperatures. My belief is that it will help to keep the heat in the system while the car runs and out of the ambient zone where the intake breaths.
I have the DDM intake as well.