>>And hear is my own Data logging graph from the couch in the basement:
>>
>>Notice it rises upward quickly at the begining then it levels off. This could be due to the fact that I am eating after a couple of hours and I do not think during that time (More reasearch is neccessary). Then at about 3 1/2 hours it rises upward again. Then again maybee I just fell asleep but stayed Logged on to MCO
>>
>>_________________
>>Doug
>>
>>
>>When in doubt, Choose the burrito

Got a chuckle out of me!

 

>>And hear is my own Data logging graph from the couch in the basement:
>>

okay, so what was the original question?

 

LOL! Haven't any of you ever left San Diego? Outside air temperature is directly, proportionally, and significantly related to engine performance. The relationship is approximately 1.8% for every 10F. Here in Tucson that translates to nearly 30 Hp winter/summer variation in my MCS performance.

Some further reading for the skeptical

 

per volume of air, the denser the air, the more power you will get. for the temperature range car guys care about, the density of the air will change linearly with absolute temperature.

converting andy's temps to kelvin gives 331/318 = 1.04

andy's hp ratio is about 166/157.8 = 1.05

"you may choose to ignore the laws of physics, but the laws of physics never ignore you."

flyboy 2160

 

>>Some further reading for the skeptical

Great article, but did you miss the part where they describe how an engine made
lots more power when they heated the intake air?

Here are some quotes from the article:
...instead of cooling the intake air to improve efficiency, he used coolant heat and exhaust waste heat to significantly warm the intake air.

...The hot vapor engine made incredible power and was highly efficient, responsive, surprisingly emissions clean, and delivered fuel economy of 45-50 MPG in a compact car, and it did it all without computers, smog pumps or catalytic converters.

So I guess you can still call me skeptical. :smile:

 

>>LOL! Haven't any of you ever left San Diego?

leave San Diego? why?

 

Trippy did you not notice in that article that he was talking about alternitive fuels?, mitromethane an OXYGEN impregnated fuel..... Same principles of Nitrous Oxide, on the chemical part......nitrous also supercools...Alternative fuels changes the whole conversation, i mean, we can talk about the heat range of the spark plugs in a deisel if ya want , but whats the point?

Thankyou flyboy for reiterating my point, but also remeber as the cylinder temps go up , via compression, or forced induction.etc, etc. you increase the risk of detonation(preignition, or dieseling), its a plain fact...(cooler is always better) thats the whole purpose of an intercooler, or the super cooling of a superconducter, etc etc, the denser the easier for energy to move from atom to atom if they are closer together, wether electricity, explosions, dont make me pull out my physics books...

as far as indexing gaps are very important, positioning debatable, but for the extremeist yes

 

>>Trippy did you not notice in that article that he was talking about alternitive fuels?, mitromethane an OXYGEN impregnated fuel.....

Nope, I didn;t miss that, I just spent the time to read the article. THat's all.

>>Same principles of Nitrous Oxide, on the chemical part......nitrous also supercools...Alternative fuels changes the whole conversation, i mean, we can talk about the heat range of the spark plugs in a deisel if ya want , but whats the point?

Roll all you want, but maybe, go back and read the last part please?

Here is a QUOTE:
"the engine ran at air/fuel ratios considered impossibly lean, such as 22:1, on pump gasoline "

 

>>andy's hp ratio is about 166/157.8 = 1.05
>>
>>"you may choose to ignore the laws of physics, but the laws of physics never ignore you."
>>
>>flyboy 2160

Hey! I'll thank you also for confirming my +/- 2.5% change in HP using theory.

Now we have theory and practivce in agreement. SUPERB!!! I love it.

 

i"ll Quote his article....

The final conclusion is that regardless of whether an engine is normally aspirated or supercharged, gas or diesel, the cooler the intake air, the better. Usually.

Smokey Yunick's hot vapor engine is simple in concept and execution. Prototypes went to many major car companies, but they couldn't figure a way to get around Smokey's patents. Smokey also faced the "Not Invented Here" mind-set. Is this engine viable for mass production? Smokey though so. Read the patent and judge for yourself. Now comes the really interesting part of this article that raises all the questions. Twenty years ago, the late, great racing mechanic and inventor Henry “Smokey” Yunick left the automotive engineers shaking their heads when he invented and patented his hot vapor engine. Based on the familiar four-cycle piston engine concept, instead of cooling the intake air to improve efficiency, he used coolant heat and exhaust waste heat to significantly warm the intake air. The purpose was to fully vaporize the fuel and to make the intake air expand in the intake system to generate positive pressure, like a supercharger. A small turbocharger was used as a “mixer” and as a check valve to prevent the expanding intake air from backflowing out of the intake system. With the heated, pressurized, homogenous mixture, the engine ran at air/fuel ratios considered impossibly lean, such as 22:1, on pump gasoline. The hot vapor engine made incredible power and was highly efficient, responsive, surprisingly emissions clean, and delivered fuel economy of 45-50 MPG in a compact car, and it did it all without computers, smog pumps or catalytic converters. Although initially denounced by the automotive world as a hoax, several prominent SAE engineers later published papers validating Smokey’s theories and design. It was no hoax to Smokey. He considered it his greatest achievement. However, the automotive giants had their own designs for increasing fuel economy and controlling emissions, and Smokey’s simple and cost-efficient engine package was ignored. Today, Smokey’s designs are buried somewhere in the U.S. Patent Office (www.uspro.gov, patent numbers: 4,503,833; 4,592,329; 4,637,365; 4,862,859) awaiting someone to take this technology to the next level. So just when you think you know the rules of how things work, somebody comes along and breaks the rules. It’s only fitting that it was Smokey Yunick."



Yes once we get this warm air engine we can discuss it, but as he states a the begining of this section cooler the better, now you redesign the cooper motor to run off Yunick's design I'm all about it, NOW back to real world.. cooler still better, till someone can build this motor, you give me on example..(aka above on a warmer air theory) i couldn't count the articles i could provide on the cold air theory, SO when you get back down to earth, we can talk, sure there are plenty of "better" designs in the patent office for I have seven(in plastics industry) of them that does not mean they are applicable for real world, or cost effective...now why are we having this argument, unless you have Somkey's motor which acording to your article only one in existence, why are you still trying to prove the point? All this over a simple sparkplug thread? For real dude, you go build your "hot air" engine ill meet you any track anywhere, and we will see..... I'll bring my dry ice, you bring your propane burners... and well run em straight up....I mean come on they big race guys at ferrari and such where money is no option, think this was a better idea dont you think they would already be implying it? They are still doing cold, Nascar with there air gap intakes tryin to keep the engine temp away from the inlet charge, drag racers pack the intakes with ice or dry ice, do i need to keep going.....

I'm not trying to be mean or any thing but we can keep this up forever, i promise i will find more info on cold air benifits than you can warm air, give it up dude, just fow example how many people on this thread have backed your clain vs mine?

 

> just fow example how many people on this thread have backed your clain vs mine?

This got SOO FAR off topic it's crazy. I'll stop now.

1) Half the people in the thread say don't spend extra money on different plugs.
2) Half say do spend money on extra plugs. (Guess which half sell auto parts for a living)
3) Half spent WAY too much time analyzing things
4) Half posted graphs. :smile:

I'm done now. You got crazy on me, misunderstood almost every post
of mine, and had perfectly sound opinions on cold vs. hot intake air.

 

So what exactly does it mean when people say "hotter plug" or "colder plug"? Do they somehow affect the combustion temperature? How?

 

They are referring to the temperature of the tippy-top of the plug.
Right near where the spark gets made.

If the plug tip is too hot, the metal melts, or the car pre-ignites, or pings.

If the plug tip is too cold, "gunk" builds up, and if it's REALLY too coldm
and you have an old oil-burning car from the 1970s, it gets soo much
crap on it that it can't spark correctly.

All they do to make a plug "hotter" or "colder" is to change the length
of the insulated shaft inside the plug. A hotter plug has a longer shaft.
A colder plug has a shorter one, so the tip is closer to the temperature
of the cylinder head. Of course the sparking location doesn't change,
it's more of an internal deep inside the plug change. You can see it if you
go to the store and look at two plugs that are identical excepr for their
heat range.

Others on this thread have said "If it ain't fouling or pinging, your plug
is just fine" and I agree with that.

That's it for me. Others will certainly have different ideas.

 

Good enough for me!.....lol

im not going into the tehcnicals again, but for a brief overveiw, you hit it on the spot!!

 

Thanks Trippy for putting us back on topic.

I always thought that selecting the proper plug meant finding one with a heat range that will match your cylinder temperature, will have a reasonable life, not foul and not burn out. That's the one that will produce max hp within its working life.

I've read a two page post and aside from the guy that said he switched to Denso IK20's (and Caddman with his copper Autolites), I'm still looking for some suggestions for alternative spark plugs and/or heat ranges for a pullyed car.

I thought it was an interesting topic.

My Graph:

(Bayesian Smoothing already employed to avoid confrontation)

T 50 | *
U | *
N 40 | *
E | *
R 30 | *
|
W 20 | *
A |
R 10 | *
S |
0 |____________________________*____
10 20 30 40 50

Time Spent on MCO (Hours/Mo)

 

Hey blue i also mentioned the densos and the cooler ngks, depending on which other mods you have done and climate you live as to which i would recommend, not try ing to start the conversation up again, but just stateing that the were other pulgs mentioned that would be useable for a pulleyed car...

 

BlueMCS,

My MINI is "pulleyed", has the Evotech ECU upgrade, and has the Alta larger air to air intercooler. I am seeking a spark plug solution that gives consistent power without fouling and detonation. No objective measures such as lap times or drag times.

My plug combination is the IK-22 with 0.080 air gap and the MSD DIS-2 ignition with the new MSD 8917 'adapter' for the MINI. Excellent cold starts, no detectable missing, plenty of smooth low and medium speed power and what feels like a great top end. The IK-20 has essentially the same heat range as the stock plugs. The IK-22 is one step colder and the IK-24 is the coldest Iridium available in this form package.

Any thoughts ?

John Petrich in Seattle

 

BlueMCS,

My MINI is "pulleyed", has the Evotech ECU upgrade, and has the Alta larger air to air intercooler. I am seeking a spark plug solution that gives consistent power without fouling and detonation. No objective measures such as lap times or drag times.

My plug combination is the IK-22 with 0.080 air gap and the MSD DIS-2 ignition with the new MSD 8917 'adapter' for the MINI. Excellent cold starts, no detectable missing, plenty of smooth low and medium speed power and what feels like a great top end. The IK-20 has essentially the same heat range as the stock plugs. The IK-22 is one step colder and the IK-24 is the coldest Iridium available in this form package.

Any thoughts ?

John Petrich in Seattle

 

where can I get a set of plugs? I would like to run cooler plugs for my long Drive to Ohio.

 

>>BlueMCS,
>>
>> My MINI is "pulleyed", has the Evotech ECU upgrade, and has the Alta larger air to air intercooler. I am seeking a spark plug solution that gives consistent power without fouling and detonation. No objective measures such as lap times or drag times.
>>
>> My plug combination is the IK-22 with 0.080 air gap and the MSD DIS-2 ignition with the new MSD 8917 'adapter' for the MINI. Excellent cold starts, no detectable missing, plenty of smooth low and medium speed power and what feels like a great top end. The IK-20 has essentially the same heat range as the stock plugs. The IK-22 is one step colder and the IK-24 is the coldest Iridium available in this form package.
>>
>> Any thoughts ?
>>
>>John Petrich in Seattle


.080 gap is quite large, how did you come up with that size, trial and error?

retroom

 

Retroom,
The plug type that I am using is available thru NAPA in the NGK line. The gap is neither large nor small, but was arrived at by a trial and error process. The stock ignition system doesn't support that gap in the IK-22 spark plug. That gap requires the MSD ignition system that I quoted.

I'm not advocating my plug choice to anyone, but responding to the question of what plugs are people using.

There are a lot of tuning hints out there that potentially can add up to significant performance and driving quaility improvements, such as thoughtful spark plug choices.

Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle (90+ degrees, whew!)

 

>> My plug combination is the IK-22 with 0.080 air gap and the MSD DIS-2 ignition with the new MSD 8917 'adapter' for the MINI. Excellent cold starts, no detectable missing, plenty of smooth low and medium speed power and what feels like a great top end. The IK-20 has essentially the same heat range as the stock plugs. The IK-22 is one step colder and the IK-24 is the coldest Iridium available in this form package.>>

I have a set of IK-22's in front of me. As I've never seen any internal combustion engine run a gap close to .080 I will try an .040. I have pulley, MSD coil and wires, a bit leaner mixture and a bunch of other stuff.

I looked at the DIS-2 set up when Caddman was playing around with it. I called MSD tech support to see if there was a module that would allow curve mapping and/or additional advance. They said that there was no available advance capability for ODB2 cars. So I didn't buy as I can't justify the cost/benefit of the DIS-2 without this capability.

I'll let you know how I like the Denso's.

 

>>LOL! Haven't any of you ever left San Diego? Outside air temperature is directly, proportionally, and significantly related to engine performance. The relationship is approximately 1.8% for every 10F. Here in Tucson that translates to nearly 30 Hp winter/summer variation in my MCS performance.
>>
>>Some further reading for the skeptical
>>

Anyone who's owned a forced induction car can certainly confess that they, especially overboosted turbocharged ones (like my 1987 Mitsu Starion), have a huge difference in performance between a 90 degree day and a 40 gegree day.
I see that 1.8% per 10 degree F figure is based on normally aspirated engines.

_________________
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Alta pulley, Stebro exhaust, Pipercross intake, Progress rear anti-sway bar.