I saw in another thread that you had mentioned using a water injection system from Aquamist.

I am currently using an Aquamist system on my turbocharged motorcycle in lieu of an intercooler. I can testify to the units build quality and function.

My question is what benefit do you think 02 injection would play with the MINI?

Considering the boost levels being run, even with the pully mod, do you think pre-ignition is a concern?

I would imagine the intercooler should keep incoming airtemps below the detonation point if premium fuel is used. Do you plan on running higher boost levels?

Ive got an extra Auqamist pump laying around. I wouldn't mind hooking it up if there was some benefit. Was wondering what you thought.

 

Given that Randy is getting a power increase with the bigger intercoolers, I would expect a similar benfit from an H2O setup; assuming you mix it with some alchohol.

If possible, I would install the injector after the throttle body; I had problems with the throttle sticking closed with the injector before the throttle on my M3.

Give it whirl!

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Sleepless

 

Randy is in California this week. Southern Cal this weekend, and NorCal toward the end of the week.

 

jlm has water injection in his MCS:



IIRC, it did absolutely nothing for power.

 

It shouldnt do anything for power. Thats the same experience I had with my bike.

Whatever power you would have made with a cooler incoming air temp is offset by the water displacing air and fuel in the combustion chamber that could have been used to make power.

It does allow you to run higher boost levels and make more power that way without worrying about detonation.

 

Tell that to my M3 whi ch made 3OOWHP consistently with H2O injection and 285 without. :smile:

It depends a lot on the amount of alchohol i n the mixture and how much detonation is happening.
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Sleepless

 

Yes, if you are have pre-ignition problems, H20 will increase HP by absorbing energy, i.e. heat, inside the combustion chambers when it is converted to steam.

Preventing detonation will not actually make HP, but instead it will keep you from loosing it.

I would not be happy with a street car that was run so close to the ragged edge of compression and ignition timing that I had to use water injection to keep it from melting pistons.

 

Actually modern ECUs do a fine job of protecting the motor from detonati on so running them near the ragged edge is not only safe but common practice among aftermarket tuners. The ECU simply backs off on the timing to keep things nice and safe.

You can test this just by runniny a tank of 101octane gas with an aftermarket ECU, many will yield an HP increase. When I get the chance I will try this with the Evotech ECU on my MCS.

My M3 has about 3OOO reliable track miles on it and has served me very well both on and off the track.

 

How does the ECU protect against detonation?

Does the MINI have a knock sensor?

From what I understand, the MINI ECU runs the car at a very rich AF ratio. That alone will help combat detonation but how does the ECU know when to back timing out?

The only reason your motor is staying alive is because you are not running it on the edge. What kind of boost levels are you running? 16-17 .lbs?

With the MCS' 8.2 (I think thats the compression ratio) CR and the intercooler keeping incoming air temps down, 16-17 pounds is rather moderate.

Try cranking the boost up to 20-22 pounds on pump gas....I think you'd find that you would be making a sacrifice to the gods of aluminum.

Todays modern AF sensors dont fair well with race gas either. Most race fuels are highly corrosive and will eat the hell outa your fuel system too.

 

Yes, by using knock sensors. Yes, the MINI has knock sensors.

The M3 is running 11PSI of boost with a 10.5:1 compression ratio. That's all it can handle without modifying the internals, so, yes, it is running as close to the edge as is reliable.

I don't really understand your comments. First you say the only reason I saw a HP increase from the H20 injection is because it was running at the edge of dentonation, now you say I'm not running at the edge?!

Frankly, the notion of "running at the edge" is vague because there are many points of failure in a motor. Sure, if you pump up the pressure you will blow up the motor; something will eventually fail. What would be the point?

What is important to me is that the boost be set at a point where you maximize power given a particular motor and budget and maintain a highly reliable and reasonably durable car. Saying that 16PSI is "moderate" for the MCS seems presumputous when you don't know if the motor can handle it without other mods? Can the clutch handle it? Can the transmission, etc. handle it?

Seems like we're back to the same conversation from the Diamond Racing Turbo thread? Where are we going with it?

Let's just wait to see if Randy has a chance to reply to your original question and get another realworld response in addition to Andy's "jlm got no increase in HP".

I would like to know what jlm has done to the car and what water/alcohol mixture he is using.

 

>>Todays modern AF sensors dont fair well with race gas either. Most race fuels are highly corrosive and will eat the hell outa your fuel system too.

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that Trick 101 and Union 76 101 are quite safe. I believe they add toulene (sp?) to increase the octane which I also understand it is the main octane booster used to make 92 octane gas. The info that I've read/heard is that toulene is a very good/safe octane booster.

From my experience of running 101 octane at the race track, I've had no corrosion problems over the past 4 years with the M3.

Do you have some conclusive evidence that 101 unleaded is corrosive? Or which race gas variants are corrosive?

 

the last time i had the car on the dynol, we did A/B runs, the only change being water injecting at >10psi boost or not. We saw no change in the dyno readings.

My conclusion was that my car had not been detonating without the water, hence the knock detector/ecu hadn't meddled with the timing, so we were avoiding a non-problem with the water.

As with all the tests at Helix, water and intercooler temps were monitored and runs made only when the temps were the same (intercooler at 130degrees)

as far as mods, my car had the BMP cam, 61mm throttle body, Supersprint header, newest Evotech chip, Rogue cat-back exhaust and 15% pulley mod (16psi max boost). No alky in the water. Uou would think this baby would kick butt, but...

My car barely put out as much as Andy's run the same day (same 15% pulley, but magnaflow exhaust, no cam, no header, no chip, stock throttle body)

 

What I was saying is that if you're running on the verge of detonation, then you are pushing it. If your ECU rolls back timing at the first hint of knock, then you are not on the "ragged edge". Thats the whole point, high boost levels, advanced ignition lead, high compression.....thats the stuff that pushes your motor to the edge. If your ECU just rolls back timing to protect the motor from grenading, then you have a safety buffer.

If you saw any improvement with water injection, then you were having detonation problems....regardless of your ECU's attempt to prevent it. Knock sensors aren't rocket science. I cant tell you how many caved in pistons I have seen from motors that had anti knock protection.

If your ECU needs to roll back timing to prevent knock, then you've got some kind of problem anyways. Too much boost, incoming air temps too high, poor fuel, AF ratio too lean, too much timing advance.....any number of issues. If your ECU needs to take timing out to keep the motor alive, then you've just got a band-aid covering a bigger problem.

Water injection is not a power adder. All it does is allow you to run higher boost levels, more advanced ignition timing or higher compression while greatly reducing the chance of detonation. If you need water injection to keep your motor alive, thats risky business.

In my opinion, that might be OK for a race vehicle that sees limited street duty but no good for a daily driver.

 

Okay, like I said, the term "ragged edge" is vague at best and we clearly have a different definition. To me, "ragged egde" means the ECU rolls back the timing just enough to maximize power without blowing the engine up.

We also seem to have a different definition for "detonation problem". In my view, there is no problem, it is the ECU's job to maximize performance and keep things safe. If I put 87octane in the car by accident, the ECU will deal with it; it rolls back the power output by rolling back the timing. Later, when I put 101 octane it in, the ECU will deal with it and give me back power. When I run 92 octane, it deals with that too. I see no problem.

There are several cars on the market that make this pretty clear in the owners manual; they say use 92 octane for maximum performance, but 87 octane is okay, but the power will be reduced. Now, if these car manufacturers design cars/ECUs this way, I don't understand how this "backing off" design is a "detonation problem".

BTW - The only reason I use race fuel at the track and the water injection is to maintain as much power as possible under such harsh conditions on hot days. The car needed neither to keep itself alive :smile: And, it is my daily driver, well, it was until I got the MCS :smile: Also, I recently replaced the water injection with a proper intercooler and upped the boost from 7PSI to 11PSI.
_________________
Sleepless

 

>>Water injection is not a power adder. All it does is allow you to run higher boost levels, more advanced ignition timing or higher compression while greatly reducing the chance of detonation. If you need water injection to keep your motor alive, thats risky business.
>>

I'm curious why you have water injection on your bike? Don't you need it to keep your motor alive?

 

jlm - what was the ambient temp during that test?

 

Absolutely. My bike is a race specific bike. I built it for land speed racing (top end events like Maxton and Bonneville). For a race platform like my bike, using H20 to keep the motor alive is acceptable to me. I take the time to prep the bike before a run and aways make sure my hold tank is topped off with ice water. If my bike was a daily driver that I used to get back and forth to work in.....needing water to keep the motor from melting would not be acceptable to me.

I only use water injection when running higher levels of boost, upwards of 20-30 pounds. You can do that with a turbo though. I turn down the boost controller to 10-12 PSI when Im running pump fuel with no water. You cant do that with a supercharger...what you got is what you got.

When I race and turn the boost up, I run VP C-16 race fuel and turn the water injection on. The water is purely a motor saver, to keep me from melting pistons under heavy load. It has never added a single HP on the dyno. My water injection is controlled by a high speed injector which is run on my Autronics as a 5th fuel injector. Its completely mapable. As my boost levels increase, the map sensor tells the injector to fire more water. This way I have only the water I need, no more, no less.

Now, what I would like to do is hook my water injection pump through an incoming air temp sensor placed after the intercooler. If air temps got above a certain degree, only then would it spray.

Has anyone tested incoming air temps out of the supercharger both before and after the intercooler?

_________________

 

BTW....I simply cannot stop watching that vid of you chasing that car around the track.

Was that a 911?

When do you get to race like that? I mean go around the track without rubbing paint with other cars. Is that just a test and tune day or a track school?

Looks like a lot of fun and your MINI is moving out!!

 

don't have the exact ambient temp, but as I recall, it was in the high 60's

 

>>don't have the exact ambient temp, but as I recall, it was in the high 60's

If you have the Aquamist still installed, try your dyno run on an 80+ day and try it with Turbo Blue windshield washer fluid; it has a very good mixture of alcohol in it. My *guess* is that you'll start to see a bit of heat soak and detonation on a hotter day and Aquamist will start to show its worth.

 

>>BTW....I simply cannot stop watching that vid of you chasing that car around the track.
>>
>>Was that a 911?
>>
>>When do you get to race like that? I mean go around the track without rubbing paint with other cars. Is that just a test and tune day or a track school?
>>
>>Looks like a lot of fun and your MINI is moving out!! :smile:

We have quite a few active car clubs here in the Northwest and we also have an excellent driving school at Pacific Raceways. Between them, I'm able to drive on the track for a day or half-day about every 2 weeks :smile: We also have 4 very nice race tracks in the area. Basically, these groups rent the track and it costs anywhere from $100 to $200 to drive. They all require some sort of one-day high performance driving school and a sign-off from an instructor to drive solo.

I'll have the MINI out on Tuesday afternoon so I'll hopefully get some fun footage again.

Yes, in two of the vids I'm chasing a 911, and in both cases the drivers came by to express their suprise at how well the MINI kept up! It's a really good performance car and with a few mods it is a *great* performance car.

 

>>Given that Randy is getting a power increase with the bigger intercoolers...


Huh? Says what dyno chart? The MINI intercooler is actually fantastic for what it is. Stabilization of the temps via a water jacket has shown promise, but a larger intercooler is NOT needed, nor helpful from the testing I've been party to. Even PWR thinks the stock intercooler is the correct size!! There is too much pressure drop with a larger intercooler.

Wet it or freeze it, but keep the stock cooler in place as it's actually the best one out there!! No joking!

R

 

I too am running water injection and have not experienced noticable power gains. I initially installed it to try to offset what others had reported as knock sensor limited power over the last 1,500 rpm (a tough thing to judge with ur butt). If that were the case, the stock WOT timing curve was over-advanced given the other stock variables or mixture, fuel octane, temperature and boost. The water injection should have been able to effectively increase octane and lower combustion temperatures and therefore allow full advance and additional horsepower over that range.

I believe that the injection system is providing higher power output on the hotter days. As I have consistantly used 94 octane fuel and have leaned out the mixture a bit the original problem may have been cured. I believe that it is still an effective safety net and retains cooling benefits and prevents carbon buildup.

My comparative dyno runs got cancelled for a biz trip. Will know more in a couple of weeks.

 

Any updates on using water injection?

I had a conversation last night with a supercharged M3 driver who thought that H20 might help overcome some of the affects of the hat soaked intercoolers.

 

The temperature of water is a significant factor in the rate of corrosion. Above 140°F the rate of corrosion of steel doubles with every 20°F increase in temperature.