Before I ask, a little background...

I've been riding motorcycles since I was 20 (I'm 46 now)

Back in 2001, I took 3 levels of Keith Codes California Superbike school. A year later, I took an advanced level of Kevin Schwantz's suzuki race school. I raced for about 5 years after that. I've raced on Mid Ohio, VIR, Kershaw, Roebling Road and Road Atlanta.

I mention this because though it's different in a car, I have experience on the track.

Last year, I took Phil Wick's Mini driving academy for a two day class.

About 3 weeks ago, I took Asphalt Ventures novice class for 2 days.

Having said that, I by NO means assume I know everything. I'm one of those people that believe in continueing education. You can always learn from those more experienced than you.

I say all this because I signed up for the Dark Side's DE in Roebling Road in Georgia. (the same place I took the mini to Phil Wicks)

They put me in another novice class. In my opinion, I need more track time. The classroom has it's benefits but for any of you that have taken a novice classroom, enough is enough.

So assuming I'm comfortable with my lines, apexes, passing, flags and smoothness, is it unreasonable for me to be in an intermediate class so the classroom is advancing my education and knowledge?

I honestly think I'll puke if I have to sit through another novice classroom. My ego is not so big that I don't want to be taught... I just want something new to learn, am I being unreasonable?

Even my instructor at Asphalt Ventures said I didn't need his instruction for novice, I ran solo the second day and got a chance to hone what I've learned.

Thoughts from those more experienced?

Thanks guys,

Mark

Thanks for your time.

 

It's a different group and they don't know you from a hole in the ground. They have no idea what your skill level is and what your situational awareness is like. Running with the same group often is the best way to advance in levels. Anyone can say I've run in this group at these tracks and there is really no way to prove it between the various groups. Check out your local BMW CCA for events. As you move up in levels with them it is usually transferable to other groups since the CCA program is well known.

I can understand your frustration. here in North TX we have 4 groups that put on events. Even though 3 of 4 has placed me in in an advanced group as Solo one that I did not run with as often held me back. One check ride was all it took to advance. You may want to ask for a check ride when you arrive stating you may have been mis-classed.

 

That's what I was looking for. I'll ask for a check ride... that way it'll let my ability show them whether I should advance or stay where I'm at.

If I'm told to stay in novice class, I have no problem with that, my ego isn't so big that I care what class I'm in.

My problem is I want more seat time and I want more advanced classroom time than what the novice class offers.

Thanks, this is why I rely on the more experienced.

Mark

 

I don't know how those groups run, but in BMW CCA events, your best ally is your instructor. Impress him or her, be safe, say all the right things, and show that you're in the wrong group, and things tend to work out. Especially if the event isn't filled to capacity. But that's CCA, so I don't know how they do it with your group.

mb

 

Thanks coops, they called my instructors at the other school and they said I definitely needed to be in the intermediate class.

Like you said, it all works out.

Mark

 

Nice! I think the key is to have the right attitude about it, like you did.

Now wait until everyone in the int. class is too slow for you, and you want to go to a different group and have to start at square one! haha it's frustrating, but you have the right idea: track time is track time, and in a place chock-full of egos, it's best to leave yours in the paddock instead of bullying people on track to prove a point.

The people who run these events can tell the difference between the guys/gals who only want to be in the faster groups to create their own fictional F1 race in their heads and those who actually want to learn in the best environment.

Update us on the event and how you enjoyed it!

mb

 

Thanks, like I said.... I just want to learn more and in my opinion, I could learn more in the intermediate classroom. Like you said, if they took a look at my driving ability and decided I should be in novice, I'm not too proud. It is what it is.

LOL, I doubt that will be anytime soon. I watch the intermediate class and the advanced class and IMO there is a HUGE stepping stone.

I think not only will I get to learn more in the intermediate class, it will allow my car and myself to fit the bill so to speak, better.

Absolutely, I'm signed up for the Dark Side's May 2,3 class and Phil Wicks intermediate class May 25.



Mark

mb[/quote]

 

I hear that - I was very nervous my first time out with advanced, and since I don't run advanced with all of my groups, I'm still a bit iffy with it. The problem with that is that we feel the need to go as fast as everyone else in that particular group, when in reality that's not the case. Go your own pace (within reason) and be johnny on the point-by if you need to be.

The guys who get pissed off at the slower cars probably have the wrong idea of what hpdE is...

Then again, if you're the slowest car in the group and you refuse to point anyone by, then I guess there could be a gripe with that.

mb

 

Ain't that the truth.... Last time at VIR, there was a black C6 Corvette. He'd tear me a new one on the straight aways and by the end of the track, he'd point me by.... then of course, he'd pass me on the straight again.

My instructor kept telling me I was too overly compliant with trying to let me by. It comes from years of my pet peeve of people driving in the left lane. When I see someone coming up behind me in the left lane, I don't care how fast I'm going, I move over.

Mark

 

Having ridden motorcycles for years (I didn’t race, but did do the Keith Code school) I’d give you more credit for experience than I think the schools do. IMHO it doesn’t matter as much as people think what you’re driving; a lot of it is in the eyes and the brain and not the mechanical bits. Anticipation, thinking ahead, situational awareness, comfort with traffic, knowing the balance of the vehicle, smoothness, etc etc are all common to many vehicles, from bicycles to dragsters. I think my experience with road and off road bikes gave me a big advantage when I started going on the track with my car.

And I’d rather be on the track with someone like you, who seems to know and appreciate his limits while still being able to push it, than with someone who is simply fast.

have fun,
Rob

 

Glad things look to be going in the right direction.

I was pretty nervous the first time I was bumped up into each new run group. The real butterflys came when I was bumped up to group 1 (the top student group). The last two sessions of the day are combined groups 1 and 0 (instructors). I was sure things were going to be ugly. But, the group 1 and 0 drivers are experienced enough (on the whole) to deal with a slow car nicely, and there were no issues at all.

I think you actually run into more issues in the lower groups where people are completely taxed just driving their own car, never mind watching out for others.

 

Butterflies are good......I still get em......even running with other instructors. What is nice about moving up through the ranks is that, as stated above, experience has shown that I am now in groups that share an understanding of each other and our goals. We have a pretty good idea of what the guy in front, behind, and to both sides of me are trying to do, and we respect each other. That said, I have no problem pulling out the big foam finger to point the faster/better driver by. As one of my instructors once told me..."God didn't just put that car doing the mirror dance on your tail out of nowhere, there's a reason they are there...." Absolute clear track is rare, traffic management skills are a must and not as bad to deal with as a lot of folks fear. There's a lot to be said for learning the off line. Especially in the rain.

I know I may sound like your Father (I'm the same age as you) but don't be in a hurry to move up....use all the instruction you can get and never quit getting it. I get rides and give rides to other instructors all the time. I'll be doing it at RRR next weekend to help me get my head wrapped around FWD rotation items I want to address. Never stop asking for help or giving it...keep an open mind always...that one little tip can make that double apex so much faster.........C-ya next weekend.

 

Just to clear the air so there was no misunderstandings, I wanted to publicly say that I meant no ill will or insult to Darkside's DE class. I wanted more track time and perhaps my wording was insultive.... it was NEVER meant to be. (I'm not that much of a jerk.... )

Jackie and the instructors know all too well what could happen if they place a student in the wrong group so I should have just kept my mouth shut and let them do their job.

I had a great time and was able to get a lot of seat time but as I was politely reminded, since I was switching to a manual for the first time, I probably could have started off in the novice group anyways. (geez, I wonder where I heard that before???)

Alls well that ends well. The class proved to be very invaluable to me and once I got my crap together (running a completely new car for the first time) I had a fantastic time and would highly recommend anyone that wants to become a better driver to check out Darkside's DE classes.

Thanks to everyone.

Mark

 

You should also check out NASA - Mid-Atlantic region (I think at nasaproracing.org) and Chin motorsports - But BMWCCA chapters also have excellent DEs.

 

Glad it worked out well. I never once took this thread as negative towards the outfit at all.

Really antsy for my first day of the season at LRP friday!

mb