Come on, Richard... we're talking about swirls seen with the naked eye by mere mortals here !

I didn't say they don't HAVE swirls, I said PW hides them well... again, looking at it in normal light from a normal distance.

If anyone gets out a bright light and a magnifying glass while walking toward the PW MINI, I'll be sure to stop them and ask them if I can take 6 hours to buff it first.

 

Well, I'm in Oregon and it is cloudy today . I doubt the sun is going to come out for me today.

 

Oh really? How unusual!

 

Going back to the original post, this gives me an opportunity to throw in my two cents.
It's gonna tick some people off.

This forum has actually become less useful because of Prima/DP.

Most certainly not because of the product or the people, but because of the infatuation.

You used to have very, very constructive discussion in here about a range of detailing products. But in the last year, every time someone asks a question, or makes any statement, you get a million responses that immediate yell DP/Prima. And so many of these folks have never even tried anything else. No one even makes the second thought anymore to suggest a few other alternatives, and if someone does it is completely lost in the noise. Forums are quickly degraded when you have a million people saying "me too" and "x2". And some of you (You KNOW who you are) are so ridiculous you just scream products as a solution to everything. In reality this is just confusing the poor person who asked the original question. It also builds up expectations way too far and sets people up for disappointment. As an example, after seeing the huge response over Hydro's amazing scent I purchased a bottle. It's nice, but not amazing at all--Zainos's scents destroy it. Realizing later many of the hydro fanboys haven't even tried zaino products.

Now that I'm sure I'm ticked off most of you, I can move on to answering the original question.

Is Prima better than Zaino? No.
Is Zaino better than Prima? Nope.

These, and others, are all top-tier products. They do each have their unique qualities that may make them better in specific situations, but they are excellent products and a customer is definitely not going wrong purchasing either of them.

What is on my MINI right now? Prima Epic and Hydro.
What do I recommend to most MINI owners? Zaino.

Back to ticking you all off: Zaino is easier to apply, more durable, and cheaper than Prima. In my experience.
But hey, at least I am basing my opinion and recommendation off of my own experience, and not just "what I hear" on a forum--in the case of making a recommendation for a product I am not experiences with, I will state what the forum recommends, but disclaim it is theirs and not mine.

Of course, DP and Heather deserve every bit of business they get here. They only sell top-notch products, they try harder than anyone else in their own product formulation, and NO ONE compares to their incredible customer service. I am happy to support and recommend them at any opportunity. I am repeatedly blow away by heather's in-depth responses to EVERY question, and she is actually non-biased at all; she is much more level headed than many of the other responses you'll see here.

Of course it goes without saying OctaneGuy's contributions here are excellent as well. But what happened to the other pros we used to have in here like BradB?
Mixed opinion is the most constructive.

Whoops, I think I put in 10 dollars instead of 10 cents. But someone finally brought it up...


I do miss the days where we had a bit more constructive discussion here.

 

Oh I know that's why I got CR. I love it when it is shiny & swirl-free but man-o-man when it is all swirled up & overdue for a thorough detailing like it is right now

 

JW, I really don't get your point. Maybe DP products get recommended more than others because more people here like them more than others. If someone asks me what works and I use a product that works, I tell them what I use. I fail to see the problem with that. Moreover, the two most knowledeble detailers (I think), Octane Guy and Heather, often suggest varying products, even though one is an owner of DP! No one is stopped from posting his or her opinion for other products.

 

DP won most of the business share of NAM'ers that use the detailing
forum based on their products and services. so why are you crying?

you can post your zaino or griots or watever you want on here,
it's not like we're brainwashed. i continue to use griots products
on my hobby cars for its carnauba finish that can not be reproduced
with polymers.

plus, imho, zaino is not that great. it's a super reflective artificial
shine which i honestly don't like. plus all the little numbers and
mixes ... just a pita.

 

I don't think your post will **** people off. I do agree that there are a few "Prima fanatics" here on NAM-but it's mostly in fun, and frankly, the Zaino zealots are far worse. In fact, it was probably 10 times worse because if you said anything negative about Zaino, it would be the same as inciting a war. This is not something unique to NAM. Talk to any other "non" Zaino users on any car enthusiast forum and they will tell you the same--that Zaino users are very passionate about their product and feel that nothing else even comes close, so you better not complain about it. Heck if they can't spell Meguiar's, then they shouldn't even be talking! (this was from a Cayman forum that I'm commenting on)

Back in the day when BradB was more visible and before Prima, it was clear that I was Pro Meguiar's, and he was pro Zaino or Sonus (referring that all his links always went back to Autopia Car Care's website..and I do realize that they were a NAM sponsor at the time even though they weren't active, he never explicitly admitted he was a shill for them--don't know if he was or not.) But he disappeared along with Autopia's sponsorship, so that was probably just a coincidence. I remember he was pursuing something with Mothers--I bought the detailing DVD that he appeared in for a few moments to see what that was all about.

I was also pro PC, most people including BradB were not--atleast to my recollection. I could be wrong here--but I do accurately recall being the minority when talking about using a machine polisher on our MINIs as well as using Meguiar's products in the days before Prima.

My point is that before Prima, the known options other than Zaino were limited within the community. Then Heather comes in and educates the masses and suddenly there is discussion of Prima, Klasse, Zymol, etc...

I would say that Detailing101 has actually matured and reached another level with the introduction of Prima. The use of the machine polisher has increased dramatically over the "early days"--something very important since our paint finishes are no longer "new", and the understanding of polishes and different wax types whether carnauba or synthetic are freely discussed.

What constitutes the "best" product obviously takes a lot of factors into place, and there is no "best" that satisfies everybody. Some people prize durability over look, and other prize ease of application over all else, and others want the best of all worlds. Regardless, it heavily boils down to technique and whether the product or system of choice impedes or encourages your exploration of furthering your knowledge of car care. Use the "best product" incorrectly and it doesn't matter how good or bad the product is.

For me, Prima offers a very good system of achieving near show car quality results with only using a PC. Using professional tools, it works as well or better than the Meguiar's Professional products that I've been using for years. The proof is in the pudding. If I continue to achieve the results that I strive for on every car I work on using Prima, then that's the best product for me. It's also great to hear back from customers after several months who tell me that their cars still look fantastic--in that case, I know Prima has done it's job to continue to make me look good.

Richard

 

And, i would also like to post that i was the first to review Prima...
Epic and Nero here on NAM.

 

My point is, simply, that there is a lot less comparison and objective discussion going on here, and that I agree with the first poster's mention that things have changed.

Say what you want about Zaino zealots, but hey they never went and made badges and clubs....

Prima is great stuff. DP is awesome. I have no qualms with them. I just would like more people to open their minds a bit more and consider no one company can make the best product in every situation.

 

that's jeremy's fault.

i only created the gallon club... 3 gallons of prima and you're in.

 

Oh god. If this is really about crying about who has badges and clubs then I'm sorry I wasted 5 minutes reading this thread. Sheesh.

I think for me (and I came into this forum just before Prima became popular), it appears that most people want to take care of their cars without the effort or skill required of a professional detailer. And I think THAT is why Prima is so popular.

I've said many times that I think Prima pretty much = Zaino, but is easier to use. Why would I use something more complicated for the same results?

The entire line is like 10 products, including polishes. It's pretty foolproof. I think that is what makes it so popular - not "brainwashing" or anything else. If someone tells me something is going to be easy and do a certain job and it doesn't meet that claim, then it doesn't matter what it is or who makes, it, I ain't using it.

Edited to add: I have plenty of non-Prima stuff in my arsenal - 4-Star products, Griot's products, Meguiar's products. I use the best from whatever brand that does what I need to do.

 

Well as I said, this discussion was necessary when the detailing vendor involvement was zilch. So in order to make Detailing101 just that---we all talked about uhm, detailing products.

That changed for the better when suddenly a knowledgeable voice (Prima) came in and set a path for all of these wandering and lost MINI owners. Instead of haphazardly trying the latest and greatest marketing gimmick, people are being offered products that actually perform.

If you want to compare someone elses product, by all means do it. We've seen plenty of Turtle Ice posts, Griots Garage posts--mostly by Ken , Klasse posts, Zymol, Zaino, Meguiar's.

FWIW, I've been playing with Ultimate's Paint Sealant and like it for what it is. It's like a super easy to apply Zaino. Just spritz on mf applicator pad, and wipe it on, then let it dry. No wiping, buffing, etc.. Layering is easily done by applying another coat after it's dry. No fear that wiping it off will remove any previous application.

The result is a slick surface that nothing sticks to it. Good stuff. At $70 bottle it's not inexpensive, but it's not out of this world like Zymol Royale.

 

well not just their waxes and polishes... but the garage accessories they have
are kinda nice.

 

Yeah, I've been following the customer service issues and wash bucket posts!

Naw but seriously, I like reading their catalogs and seeing what new tools they've come up with. I'm a gadget freak.

 

yah, you fit their demographics perfectly.

 

Regarding Prima domination in this forum: Think about the pond you're fishing in. It's stocked with Prima users because DP has been very helpful by providing information to them.

Detailing novices (which we all were at some point) are unsure of how to go about caring for their cars' finishes. Heather does a great job of explaining the benefits of Prima's products and how to use them. Because of that help, users get good results. Therefore, when someone else asks what to use, these users say Prima because they know it works. It's a snowball effect.

I would argue that this is serving the NAM community quite well because good products and good techniques are being used. I agree that it would be even better to have more discussion, but this is Detailing 101 after all, not the detailing graduate program!

By the way, I use Klasse AIO and SG and like them a lot, even though they're difficult to remove.

 

As most of the discussions in this thread have pointed out (and as BradB reminded me way back when I started posting in the detailing forum) it isn't so much about the product but about the PROCESS. How well do you follow the directions for whatever product you choose to purchase? How carefully do you wash your MINI to avoid causing swirls? How much time have you invested in learning how to use that beautiful PCDA? How well do you care for your tools, microfibers and pads?

I'm still a Sonus fan for polishes and and a Zaino fan for sealants and a few other products, but most of that is because I've spent the time up-front figuring out how those products work and I can get consistently good results. I know my Z6 from my Z5, Z2 and ZFX and I don't know the difference between Amigo and Swirl... It isn't that one is 'better' than the other... it's just that I know how to use one well and I get the results that I like.

Were I to start all over again, I might pick up the Prima stuff because having a rep so active in our forum will definately shorten the learning curve.

 

And IMO, Prima isn't targeted at people like yourself. For those still learning the way on what works best for them, Prima offers a system that works. Switching from Meguiar's wasn't an overnight deal. I first had to realize the major differences between the systems, and then fully apply myself. Once that happened, I realized I could get better results than with Meguiar's whether I used a PC or a rotary buffer.

But for most people, once you find something that works for you, you might as well stick with it, until you decide that one day you're ready to open up and try something new. Then you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

I always apprecite the advice & tips from OG & Heather. Since most NAMers seem to use Prima it is hard to get a word in sometimes for a mix-n-match user who has figured out what they like best through trial & error (& I am still working on some things). It's kinda a waste of time to talk about any non-Prima products in the forum as you kinda get lost in the shuffle. But I have talked to Heather at length about what I do & I always appreciate her totally non-Prima-biased advice & I buy most of my non-Prima products from DP as well. I have tried many many products & have settled on my 5 all-time favorite products as Smart Carwash, Clarity, Klasse, P21-S, & Monster Fluffies. So see I am a mixer & those products, for me, are the best in their class. I am giving a go at the Prima polishes for the 1st time this weekend to see if they can beat out Sonus as my favorite polishes

But I do see jwardell's point because it is kinda hard to get a good conversation going about any other products out there as everything else kinda gets drowned out

What's a PCDA? Is that one of them newfangled Blackberry thingies

 

I have to disagree with this. When I first starting reading detailing on NAM, all I read was Zaino, Zaino, Zanio. The zeolots dominated. That is no different than now. You read and weed out the wheat from the chaff. If you just blindly follow the "me toos", then perhaps a better means for choosing products would be wise.

True. But I can see his point in that they are drowned out in Prima recommendations. But then again, this is no different than say 2005 when Zaino ruled here.

But that goes back to my first sentence here. If people just blindly follow the "me too" posts, then they just buy whats popular on one forum. But that may not reflect what is truly popular. And I think you can attest that on the p-car forum, very, very few people ever even heard of Prima.

NAM detailing represents one small part of the virtual world here.

I think Agranger and Brad were the original detailing Gurus a couple of years ago. No? I think so.

 

I guess I don't understand the problem.

Someone comes in, asks for advice. Of course, people are going to recommend what they use, as long as it's working well for them. What are people SUPPOSED to say "Umm, I don't know about that Meguiar's stuff...it might be crap, but go ahead and try it and let us know how it works out..."?? People are going to recommend what they use and like; it's not exactly rocket science or like people are recommending products that DON'T work for them.

There are posts in this thread that show tons of details on varying cars using varying brands of products. In fact, in the past day or two, there have been three threads outlining details done by members, one was using Zaino, one was using Prima, and one was using Menzerna. Go back another day or two more, and there are product reviews of Turtle Wax and Griot's products.

So not only do I not get the problem, I honestly don't see it. I do see Prima bias, and that's going to be natural with the level of support we get from Heather here. But that's like going into the Tires & Wheels forum and complaining that there's a Tire Rack bias.

 

Bottom line - if someone has a product to recommend other than Prima, they are free to do so as vigorously as they'd like.

If you want advice on another brand, give this forum a shot, maybe someone else has experience with it. If not, you can try a forum on a detailing-centric site rather than a MINI site.

Note to Heather: You should look into some BMW forums. I was talking to a detailing enthusiast/BMW fanatic the other day and he hadn't heard of Prima. Share the love with our BMW-owning brothers!

 

Be careful about that. Vendors pay to advertise here. I would not go running into other automotive forums and just start advertising products without reading their policies on advertising first.

MLWagner, I think the issue is pretty simple. Two years ago, you asked a question here and mostly every response was Zaino. Today its Prima. I dont care what it is but some ppl may be influenced by that. Yes, some ppl, like BAMA, are Klasse/PS21 enthusiasts, but just count the posts and Prima seems predominant today. Your right, nothing wrong with expressing your opinion .... but Jwardell has a point ...

After seeing 1,000 "me toos" about one product, how useful is that (and over time, that product has changed)?

 

Well, NAM is how I found out about DP. I have a mish mash arsenal. Up until now, Klasse and Soverain (sp?), and NXT for quickies worked beautifully. I still use them on the other household cars but bought Clarity, Slick and Hydro for the road trip. Wonderful products, and I do love that yummy smell.

Now, I am into the Griot products, in particular the One Step Sealant, which is comparable to Klasse AIO. I used his RO Wed, and wondered why I hadn't used one before. It was the Zaino zealots who led me to think about an RO a couple years ago, but I couldn't figure out which one to buy. Autopia's UDM looked promising, but it seems there are design issues being worked out. I also have followed his company for years as it's a native of Tacoma and he supports the local car clubs, and his customer service is a car nut's delight: knowledable and friendly shop people and really fair prices because you don't need a lot of product. I was advised to use One Step for the daily drivers (the Versa, and for my little Honda Coupe who now sleeps outdoors) with Spray on Wax for ease of maintenance and the carnuba Best of Show for Tawanda. Since I have taken great care of these new cars, I was adviced I didn't need anything stronger than One Step. Now, that I would not have figured out on my own.

So far, I am extremley impressed with the One Step Sealant process (followed by Hydro as I ran out of gas to put on the Best of Show). The RO did its job, was a no brainer to use, and took the little water spots and swirls from less than optimal washing conditions on the road on the first pass.

I took my daughter to the airport at 4 am today, and of course it rained The boot got splashed up, but I was stunned at how clean it remained. I spritzed on some Speed Shine, and she looked like she did Wed in 3 minutes.

I'll continue to experiment as there are MANY divine products out there.

And, I am in awe of Heather and her knowledge, writing abilities and willingness to share. Who the heck wouldn't support someone like that also? That is what I call passion and dedication! That packaging is so artistic (and the SMELL). Nope, I haven't smelt Zaino. To be honest, I had Zaino in the basket many times, but the numbers threw me off. I believe they are a great product. But, I like different varieties of ice cream to sample.

And, OG is so helpful and kind also. He steered me right on car care for a road trip. THANK YOU

Heather could probably get on the 8th Gen Honda site and others and drum up more business

My nickel's worth...............