Well I will try to post the warning here. I was handed my teeth when I posted this warning on the MiniMania website. It seems that people look the other way and condone illegal activities when it concerns Classic Minis. Recently a Mini came up on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...263085118&rd=1 have a look! Isn't this a beautiful example of a 1960 MK1 Mini? Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this picture?

 

So please enlighten all of us with what is wrong.

 

It doesn't have external door hinges.

But he says in the ad --- "1960s/80s Spec Mini".

 

... and it has late-model side markers, tail lights, front grille and lots of other modern touches. And YES he does say:

"1960's/80's spec"

...which means that it was re-VINned to get into the US under the 25-year classic car import rule.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, though. True, it's a re-VIN and not a true '60, which would affect the "collectability" of the car, I suppose, but it all depends on what you're looking for as a buyer. If you just want a classic-styled Mini then I think you're actually BETTER OFF with a re-VIN - it's newer and likely has less mechanical issues (although this can certainly vary depending on how the car was maintained).

If, however, you really want "bragging rights" for having a very early-model Mini, and also want the quirky things that only that vintage has (hollow doors with factory, chrome-trimmed pockets, sliding side windows, a smaller rear window, "magic wand" shifting, etc.) then yes, this isn't the true '60 for you.

What I'm saying is that there's nothing WRONG with a re-VIn, but you really should know what you're buying. that car's only pulling about $8500 ATM in the auction, which is certainly fair given the sghape the car looks to be in. A true 1960 in that shape would go for TWICE that.

Just sayin...

 

A trend in this country has been to circumvent the law by taking VIN numbers and titles from older classics and put them on newer cars. This car is obviously a 1980 something vehicle being passed off as a 1960 MK1. For one the MK1 vehicle is more desireable to true collectors because of age. There are several reason people re-vin a Mini, one is to cover a theft in the UK, a thief can steal a car, re-vin it as an older classic put it in a container and for about 1500 ship it to the US and have a dealer or private individual sell it amd make huge profits on a car that cost them nothing. Another reason for re-vinning a Mini is to make it something it is not for profit and gains to the unsuspecting buyer. Another reason is just to get an illegal import into the country so someone can have the thrill of driving a newer car. Here is a picture of a very nice 1960 MK1 Mini

Note the sliding windows, exterior hinges, grille, and small wheels and tires.


Here is the back of one, note the tail lights trunk(boot) design and inside door pockets.

Now look at a 1986

No exterior hinges, roll up windows, larger wheels and tires, side lights and bonnet badges, grille surround and grille are a give away as well. Larger tail lights and different boot design and boot area as well as a larger gas tank.

You be the judge, does this car look like a 1960 MK1 to anyone?

It violates eBay policies at the very least, it smells of a rat somewhere. People are best to stay very clear of these re-vinned vehicles for a number of reasons, the most important it is Illegal and a federal offence to sell a vehicle with the intent to decieve the public. And I for one would not want my wife and children riding around in a hot car that can be identified as illegal. Just my two cents worth.

Unfortunately these types of crimes devalue the rest of the Mini population that is legal and hurts us all! And what I have found by posting obvious infractions has put me in the crosshairs of these criminals and have been called names, threatened and told not to show my face at meets. It is becoming all too common and for what? A cheap knockoff devaluing the car in question for future generations, and making other peoples cars worth less.

 

Nothing wrong except that it is a federal law that has been broken and a violation of eBay policies.

 

Sorry you had that experience, but I think that something in the way you're approaching this is drawing this sort of negative attention to you.

Mini people know full well what a re-VIN is, and while I understand that some people are bothered by the practice, and yes, it is against Customs rules to re-VIN (although Curstoms inspectors can and do inspect incoming vehicles and will crush a car they can prove is a re-VIN - this is easy to spot), I don't know why simply pointing this out to prospective buyers would get you banned from meets. I have to assume that it's about your attitude. Given that you've never bothered to post in this forum before now, and this, your first post, is so (pardon the expression) inflammatory, I can kinda see why this may be the case.

Bottom line is that there are LOTS more Minis made within the 25-year prohibition period than outside, and those cars tend to be prices far less expensively than a true Mk1. Not everyone can afford a Mk.1. How does it "hurt us all" that there are MORE classic Minis on the roads? By generating more interest in newcomers to buy and maintain a classic Mini? By allowing us to have larger meetings? I fail to see the logic, sorry.

Remember: you draw more flies with honey than vinegar. Just an observation.

Hopefully you'll stick around and take the time to become part of the community - I think you'll find that people are more receptive to judgmental posts like this after people are able to establish a "base line" for your maturity level.

If the above pisses you off well... Sorry. Really. Honestly.

And if you're so worried about e-Bay, I suggest you take it up with them. The auction clearly states it's an "80's spec" Mini, which means re-VIN to anyone that does even 5 minutes of research.

 

Honestly I dont have a big problem with going over to England finding a newer vehicle finding a way to get it home and if you can fool customs into believing you have something older so you can enjoy it the rest of your life so be it. But to pass it off to someone else in a public forum like eBay is just wrong on many levels. It is illegal and not just a slap on the wrist illegal, it is a federal crime. God knows I would love to have a 2000 Mini in my garage, look forward to the day I can, but to break the laws of the US at that level is just not worth the thrill!

 

So turn 'em in to eBay if you feel so strongly... why pee in this pool? I guess stopping more of these sorts of auctions increases the value of YOUR car, seeing as how you claim it's a true Mk.1... If this is about protecting your investment, I can respect that, but that's not a true "community" issue - that's you trying to keep your car's value high. (shrug).

As for "not worth the thrill"... Meh. It's in the US already, which means that it's past the true peril: Customs. Shy of California (which has some truly draconian classic car rules), I've never heard of ANY DMV that knows (or cares) about a vehicle's true vintage. If it fooled Customs then it will 99.99% fool the DMV. Not exactly "thrilling" - maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

 

I have spent 36 years caring for my classic, kept it in nice shape. it isnt perfect but I drive it every day. Longed for the day to get a newer car, but refuse to break felony laws to have one.

What is inflammatory about standing up for what is right and lawful? What is inflammatory about pointing out a person trying to sell a car to the public that is illegal? There are a ton of NEW MINI owners that are now looking at the classics because they love the BMW and see how great the classic is and are confronted with these revinned cars.

How does it effect everyone you ask? The Mini, the car that was designed and created in 1959 has a heritage, each individual car has a history, and when you strip even one car of its birthright you effect the entire line of cars. I have a bit of a different perspective in that I dont think a Mini is a Mini is a Mini. The law is in place to protect that car and the integrety of its history, when you take it away you take a little bit of the entire fleet of Minis ever produced. They should be cherished cared for and reserved for future generations. The problem is people only think of what is in it for me at this moment.. and thats fine, self indulgence is the American way, but many Minis are destroyed by people with no sense not to break the law, and to just look the other way or to think that its ok to have one of these re-vinned vehicles, well its tragic and without people standing up and saying something about it and noone giving a crap could destroy the integrety of the car for the rest of time. It would be a true shame if the only Mini left that is a true Mini in a 100 years is sitting in a museum somewhere.

 

Matt, sorry to come off as a zealot, and I can be abrasive especially to those who just don't get it. But I am not peeing in this pool, I am warning potential New MINI owners of the perils of owning an illegal car, and that they should not buy one. I am passionate about the Mini, have been for 36 years of the 47 I have lived. Had to fabricate parts in the old days just to keep it going. In the last 10 years since the Internet, illegal imports have skyrocketed, and yes it devalues the entire stock of classic Minis. I have taken this up with eBay and will be posting in forums anywhere there are readers to make people aware of this crime.

 

I'll bite because my husband and I are considering the possibility of purchasing a Classic Mini that we hope will need a relatively small amount of work that we could complete over a summer. We're not actively shopping right now, but we did discover that we have space in our garage for one, and if the right opportunity presented itself and money allowed, we'd probably go for it.

If you're going to warn of the dangers, how about giving a short, simple list of how to spot a re-vinned vehicle and post a short, simple list of why you think it's wrong to do it? I think that would be more advantageous to potential Classic Mini owners like myself than to wade through all of these posts to get to the meat of the issue.

 

Typically when you see something listed like 1960/90 spec car means that it is a re-vin, meaning that for all intents and purposes the car is a 1990 with a 1960 title. Be very careful when inspecting these cars, I would look for someone that has owned the car many years, anything under 25 years old is illegal to have in this country. So as of today a 1983 Mini is the latest car that you can legally own. There are tell tale signs. I will get a few links to things to look for this afternoon.

 

not sure if you are trying to sell, buy or annoy.

 

Let me make myself clear, I am not trying judge or point fingers at those who have chosen to drive and enjoy their re-vinned Mini, I am not going to snitch you out if in fact you are using and enjoying your car. What I am saying is that anyone looking to buy a classic Mini needs to be aware that there are those on the Internet and in dealerships across the US passing off newer cars as classics. They do this illegally by either stealing the identity of another Mini and making it their own, or they are hiding the fact that the car is stolen, or they want to saturate the market with illegal cars making the true classics worth less. Identity theft of a car is as big of a hassle to restore it's identity as it is if you had your own identity stolen, if not worse.

The purpose in this thread is not to irritate or be inflammatory, it is to hopefully persuade new potential Mini enthusiasts to do their homework and not to be fooled by re-vinned illegal cars that could potentially get them into trouble. It is a felony offense to re-vin a car for the purpose of deception, and just as illegal to cover the identity of a stolen car from the UK.

The people that are irratated should just sit back and relax and not respond, most that get upset with what I post are those who turn a blind eye to the law and don't see anything wrong in breaking it to get what they want and see nothing wrong in re-vin cars.That's all fine, there are actually probably more people that feel that way than those willing to wait until the car is legal for import. God knows I would love to have a 2000 Classic Mini sitting in my garage. I hope to live long enough to have one.

To answer Gemini's question. True Mk1 Minis have their chassis number stamped into the a pillar inside the engine compartment, on the left side where it rises up from the firewall cross member to the fender (wing). A little paint thinner or brake fluid rubbed in the right spot will bring that number to life, dont sand though the numbers sometimes are a bit light and you don't want to destroy it. It is a little known fact and one that has saved many cars when identifying them. Here is a good article to start with

http://classicmini.wordpress.com/200...ify-your-mini/


Here is a guy selling a book on buying a classic, I have not read it, but I am sure it is packed with lots of facts.


http://www.howtobuyyourclassicmini.com/


Anyways, ask alot of questions, inspect the car and by all means take pictures and ask someone that knows what you are looking at. The more sophisticated thieves know how to fool the majority of us and sometimes there is no real way of knowing what you are getting but surely the blatent 1984+ Mini being sold as a 60 something is an easy spot and should be avoided at all costs!

Oh and a short list of why not to buy a re-vin Mini? IT IS A FELONY, you may not get caught, you may not care, you may not go to jail even if you get caught, but they will crush the car and you will lose your investment, and in 17 years when all Minis are legal for import, the one you have with the wrong identification becomes literally worthless!

 

should we go after the people who sell fake Ss as well?

 

Probably, but really, it's caveat emptor ("let the buyer beware") with ANY used car.

As for spotting a "true" classic, a simple browsing of these forums will point you to a book called "The Complete Classic Mini - 1959-2000" by Chris Rees. This, IMHO, is a MUST HAVE item for anyone thinking of purchasing a classic Mini of any vintage. the book details every production model year and model of Mini, even the international versions by Innocenti and others, and clearly details all the mechanical details that can be used to properly ID the car. Every page is crammed with photos, so a potential buyer can compare key identifying items such as the grille shape/number of slats, the shape of the tail lights, the proper engine displacement, the gauge layout, etc. awith the seller's photos.

For people wanting to know what to look for as far as rust. problem areas and a review of how one should test-drive a potential purchase, please see the sticky thread at the top of the Classics forum for a link to the MiniFinity Buyer's Guide - I had the Guide printed out, in-hand, when I went to test drive Fiona, and found the checklists VERY helpful.

I completely agree with an owner doing their homework, but mainly so that they don't have unexpected surprises and become soured on the Mini experience. I'm not personally worried about what's right or proper for a "classic" Mini - as far as I'm concerned (and I know others disagree - fine), ALL Minis before the BMW Mini are "classics" in their own right. Seeing how relatively unchanged the car was mechanically over its 4 decades of production, that's good enough for me.

As far as the re-VIN, the way I figure it, if you're buying a car with an existing, valid state title, then Customs saw the car, customs had the opportunity to challenge the validity of the VIN, and they passed it along. How this happens with some cars (Japanese-spec late-model Minis with AC and electric windows for example) still baffles me to the point that I figure Customs either consciously lets them pass knowing full well the car isn't 25 years old, or that they care so little that they might as well consciousl;y pass them. Given the dangers customs inspectors are looking for now (hazardous materials, etc.) I can't say I really blame them...

 

it's the job of the federal government ot enforce such law and not us.

this whole thread can summed up as "buyer beware" like any other purchase in life.

 

Man, thats alot of typing.

 

Absolutely if they are selling it as a genuine S trying to get premium dollars for a car that is not in fact an S. That is fraud! Now if the ad says this car is an S clone, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have cooper stripes on my Mini, but it is not a cooper, I just think it looks cool, I have MK3 seats in my car too, just for comfort because I drive it all the time, any mods or engine change to the car doesn't change its year or model or VIN. But when you change the VIN to reflect something totally different than what it is you completely make the car worthless.

 

This isn't new. People have been doing this for over a decade since the feds made the eligible importation date a rolling date back in the mid nineties... You just figuring it out? Any car buyer that doesn't educate themselves before parting with their cash, gets what they deserve. It's that way with all used cars, not just Minis (re-vin'd or not)

In no way does this de-value your classic. In fact, it has increased the market for Minis in general and prices for true "classic" Minis have benefited from it. I have a 79 Estate and a 64 1071 S. Values of the cars have risen substantially in this period.

None of this revin stuff is my business. Like Ann Landers used to say..MYOB is the best practice. Oh, and "don't call the dogs to bite you..."

 

It truly amazes me that just because it has been going on and that it is somehow an acceptable practice that it makes it ok or that we should just look the other way. That's what is BS. I will talk about this and I will make people aware of it that don't know any better. It only becomes inflammatory when people start trying to defend their own actions. I made a post on MM that needed no response, I made a post here that needs no response, it is Buyer Beware, this is a fake illegal Mini for sale and not only is it fake it is a bad fake, It might be the most beautiful car on the planet but it is not a 1960 MK1 Mini. Period, the ad is a lie and in direct violation of eBay policies as well. And as you just stated to the fact it goes on all the time. The internet has taken something that very rarely happened in the past before the Internet to an acceptable rule to break because of the ease it is done with and it floods the market with cars that would have great value to this country and to the market if they were legal, but when they do come of age and are now legal Minis to have, lets say a 1990 mint condition Mini in the year 2015 I can now import legally, huh all the 1990 cars are registered as 1970 Minis and cant be had except with destroyed valueless titles and vin tags. Not only are you defacing an historical icon but ruining thier futures just so people can have slick newer Minis in this country before they are legal.

Bottom line is it is a crime, it is against the law. That is in no way inflammatory, judgemental or biased.

The fact that it is currently illegal gives the subject no room for debate so the laws no matter how silly they are or how easy it is to break them need to be changed or obeyed or dont drive one unless you can find one legally that has been in this country before the laws applied or take advantage of the 25 year classic rule and get a 1983 and modify the snot out of it, any Mini regardless of age can be made to be as nice as any others, Having a look at Norm's stuff says it all.

Whatever, we all can agree the Mini is the coolest car on the planet, I dont blame anyone doing whatever they can to drive one. If the shoe was on the other foot, I can not honestly say that being new to the car and wanting one bad that I wouldnt care where it came from, but from the side of the ball that I am looking at the Minis are being destroyed by altering their heritage, that is a very sad state of affairs.

I am entitled to speak up without being called names, voice my opinion, I had no intention of blowing the whistle on anyone but threatening me, telling me to watch my back and so on from the MM boards, I am glad they took it down. It's obviously a heated subject that **** people off. And have no concern over the BMW Mini owner or any newbie wanting a "true" classic, they already know what its like to drive a fake one... sorry BMW

 

Mercy, Minitopia looks to be most concerned with the value of the cars

Just because someone has owned a old British car, or any old car for that matter, for 20, 30, 50 years doesn't mean that the value of that car should increase. About 12,000 1960 Jaguar XK150's were produced, around 5,000 1960 Austin-Healey 3000 BT7's were produced. Mini production for 1960 was 116,677

The collector car market is based on rarity, not age. Why should a 1960 Mini be worth $50K? if they built over one hundred thousand of them. The Only Mini that has the right to be in the upper end of the collector car market is one of the original Works Mini's. A 1966 Works Mini sold in August 2007 in Sussex, U.K. for $169,680.00, does this mean any 1966 Mini is worth that, NO. People who buy a classic Mini with the intention of making a large sum of money miss the point of owning one in the first place.

I didn't buy my car with the idea that I would be able to make money off of it in the future, quite the opposite, I knew it would cost me money to own it for as long as I own it. I am not resentful towards any other Mini or MINI owner for the value of my car. My car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't go into my car hold and look at my car as a pot-o-gold. I did my research for 10 months to find my car to make sure I got a real Sportpack Mini. And my Mini has it's original VIN# on the glass and on the body and the fake VIN tag on the radiator support, it's also on the California title. The EPA & DOT paperwork I got from the owner in Indiana has the original VIN# on them. I don't consider my car a fake or illegal car--------it's a 1998 Rover Mini(14,311 produced) Sportpack....and damn proud of it

This MINI/Mini community is not for HATERS! We are here for each other and to promote the Motoring lifestyle

 

This thread is 5 minutes of my life I can never get back. How about we all go back to talking about what needs done on our cars or even better yet actually go fix them rather than sit here and argue. Relax, maybe crack open a nice beer or something.

 

....."cant we all just get along"....